Australian Grand Prix 2011, Albert Park Circuit - Race 1/19

JUMPURS · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:18

AcidHell2 said:
It's both, do you think one season has no barring on the next season?
Despite things like budgets, to new cars being a revision of last years.

Yeah, I think it should have meant they had 100% more knowledge of what to expect and do.

Emlyn_Dewar · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:21

dalin80 said:
Absolutely they are almost a joke of a team but surely denying them a chance to improve only does more damage to the credibility of the sport.

Using the Sunday race as a test event when you are that slow would just be dangerous.
Would be an absolute farce to have these sheds trundling round the track getting in the way of any racing.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:22

Emlyn_Dewar said:
Using the Sunday race as a test event when you are that slow would just be dangerous.
Would be an absolute farce to have these sheds trundling round the track getting in the way of any racing.

They don't though, just look at last year, they are so easy to overtake, it really isn't a problem. Even the teams wanted them to race, fia over ruled it.

ps3ud0 · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:32

AcidHell2 said:
FIA. they came in under promises of 40million and other rules.
As crofty and r5l team said, it's a miracle they have a car at all, due to the terms they signed up for.

Though I agree, once bitten, twice shy comes to mind - if that was a crux point then why return for a second season and not sell the outfit?

dalin80 said:
But when the race pace is a world detached from the qualifying pace is the 107 rule fair? By not allowing a team to race in one race they will inevitably be slower in the next due to lost milage for car and driver. coupled with no real in season practice days and a team that misses the ladder once is done for.

i dont like HRT but I think the 107 rule needs to be updated.

So its fair to expect them to do qualifying pace (which was still a couple of seconds off the pace) in race trim for 70odd laps - keep dreaming...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Demon · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:33

AcidHell2 said:
because it's totally un-workable, that's obvious if you thought about it for a few seconds.
So FIA are going to lug a wind tunnel to every race are they? Or are you going to ban updates, they can update the car several times in a race weekend.

I just don't see it as that unworkable,

1. Once you've effectively removed the need to keep tweaking aero, most upgrades should be internal, and part of this effort would be to open up more flexbility in other areas such as suspension/engine/drivetrain etc.
It may be possible to pre-test a car with differing ride heights/weight distributions for compliance and then just allow a 're-test' when and if they want to change any key aero affecting aspect of the car.

2. How portable can you make a simple wind tunnel that can generate (ideally upto 200MPH) simple air flow and measure the corner weights of each car? If this can be made to be not much larger then a lorry, you could even test each car post-race if so required, or randomly check a few cars, whatever is most practical..

As much as it adds a whole layer of complication and 'administration', I can't see that any amount of rule changing is going to stop the lose-lose issue we have with aero at the moment, where all the money and innovation is largely spent, and it demotes overtaking on a massive scale..

I admit it's not that 'workable' in terms of ease of administration etc, but sticking your head in the sand and trying to promote overtaking by introducing artificial means is all you can really do to combat what is scientifically a very easy parameter to quantify.

TheGamingGeneral · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:36

Perhaps the failed deal with toyota played a part in whats gone wrong with HRT, well this year atleast.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:36

ps3ud0 said:
Though I agree, once bitten, twice shy comes to mind - if that was a crux point then why return for a second season and not sell the outfit?

Sell what, they haven't got any thing to sale, why should't they keep trying, what choice do they have.
They have to keep trying.
Also you can;t compare operating budget to a team like force India. They will have far more equipment and infrastructure. As well as design and other such things.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:38

Demon said:
I just don't see it as that unworkable,

1. Once you've effectively removed the need to keep tweaking aero, most upgrades should be internal, and part of this effort would be to open up more flexbility in other areas such as suspension/engine/drivetrain etc.
It may be possible to pre-test a car with differing ride heights/weight distributions for compliance and then just allow a 're-test' when and if they want to change any key aero affecting aspect of the car.

2. How portable can you make a simple wind tunnel that can generate (ideally upto 200MPH) simple air flow and measure the corner weights of each car? If this can be made to be not much larger then a lorry, you could even test each car post-race if so required, or randomly check a few cars, whatever is most practical..

1) you can never stop tweaking aero, unless you standardise components and that's not f1.

2) you can't, you can't lug one around. There's not enough time to test and crunch the numbers for all parts for all teams.

It simply not enforceable.

NathanE · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:41

There should be a rule that says "If a team fails to qualify for more than 3 consecutive events in a row, they are granted 1 free day of unrestricted testing at a track of their choice."

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:43

NathanE said:
There should be a rule that says "If a team fails to qualify for more than 3 consecutive events in a row, they are granted 1 free day of unrestricted testing at a track of their choice."

Costs money, should be where possible extra track time on the Friday/Saturday. either just an extended period or between support races or something, be far the cheapest race and give fans something extra to watch albeit pretty boring.

teknokid · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:43

You can't really lug round a wind tunnel - they're enourmous!

Not even all the teams have one they're so large/expensive!

ins0mn1ac · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:48

Its a shame about HRT, I do feel bad for them. I do however think they kind of brought it on themselves though. They had just as much time as everyone else to get **** together.

FIA almost reward the rich teams with 107% rule. It will be a massive overall compound effect, I bet they miss out on most of the season which will be a nightmare scenario for them, and a huge waste of funds!

NathanE · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:51

AcidHell2 said:
Costs money, should be where possible extra track time on the Friday/Saturday. either just an extended period or between support races or something, be far the cheapest race and give fans something extra to watch albeit pretty boring.

They need to offer something to struggling teams. Special after school lessons

Demon · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:51

AcidHell2 said:
1) you can never stop tweaking aero, unless you standardise components and that's not f1.

2) you can't, A you can;t lug one around. there's no enough time to test and crunch the numbers for all parts for all teams.

It simply not enforceable.

They wouldn't need to crunch numbers for all parts for all teams, it is upto each team to do their own number crunching before sticking parts on the car that can affect aero, The FIA need to only assess the car as a whole in race trim.

The worst case the FIA need to do is test the race car post race, they already check weights of the cars etc now, in very simplistic terms, whacking a sodding great fan in front of the car and switching it on doesn't sound that much more time consuming..

Creating a portable test-cell that would do some of the other 'weight' tests as well as pass air over the car and measure corner weights just sounds feasible to me.. But I'm all ears in understanding why it can't be done on a technical level..

ps3ud0 · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:52

AcidHell2 said:
Sell what, they haven't got any thing to sale, why should't they keep trying, what choice do they have.
They have to keep trying.
Also you can;t compare operating budget to a team like force India. They will have far more equipment and infrastructure. As well as design and other such things.

As much as youd like to paint the FIA as the bad men, I cant believe HRT are so naive not to attempt to plan ahead to ensure their long term survival - Williams arent still here because they are lucky with getting sponsors, suppliers and people when they were having issues with working capital.

HRT already have made a mockery of F1 last season by being on the grid - sorry, but I hope they go the way of Lola if they dont improve. I doubt many will miss them...

EDIT: Ignoring the costs of entry and survival, I think the testing ban is not conducive to bringing in new teams into the sport...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:53

Demon said:
They wouldn't need to crunch numbers for all parts for all teams, it is upto each team to do their own number crunching before sticking parts on the car that can affect aero.

The worst case the FIA need to do is test the race car post race, they already check weights of the cars etc now, in very simplistic terms, whacking a sodding great fan in front of the car and switching it on doesn't sound that much more time consuming..

Creating a portable test-cell that would do some of the other 'weight' tests as well as pass air over the car and measure corner weights just sounds feasible to me..

It is not like checking weights that is a simple non consuming time test and cheap.

If you don't test, teams will simply break the rules.

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:55

ps3ud0 said:
As much as youd like to paint the FIA as the bad men, I cant believe HRT are so naive not to attempt to plan ahead to ensure their long term survival - Williams arent still here because they are lucky with getting sponsors, suppliers and people when they were having issues with working capital.

And your trying to paind HRT as the bad guys, without looking at what they came into the sport under and what has happened to certain contracts.

A long established team is slightly different to a start up team for example they have the infrastructure and they can get sponsorship relatively easily, FIA made huge mistakes. HRT have also been unlucky/stupid depending on what contracts where signed.

I expect they will go, that's not my point. My point is everyone is blaming them, when a lot of focus should be on FIA promising x,y,z and the selection process.

ps3ud0 · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:58

As you pointed out, surely HRT would have ensured that these promises and breaking them meant some form of financial security by way of an agreed contract. The more I think about it the more stupid their entry into F1 becomes - we arent talking about people that dont have a lot of business acumen...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Glaucus · 27 Mar 2011 at 19:58

ps3ud0 said:
As you pointed out, surely HRT would have ensured that these promises and breaking them meant some form of financial security by way of an agreed contract. The more I think about it the more stupid their entry into F1 becomes - we arent talking about people that dont have a lot of business accum...

ps3ud0

You can't force the hand of the FIA you have to trust them or more likely pray.

I was more on about chassis and design contracts and the like.

ps3ud0 · 27 Mar 2011 at 20:02

AcidHell2 said:
You can't force the hand of the FIA you have to trust them or more likely pray.

So entry into F1 is more like spitting on your hand and having a handshake? Either the FIA are the sporting version of the Illuminati or HRT is owned by Tim Nice-but-dim...

P.S. The two F1 documentaries have started on BBC 4...

ps3ud0 :cool: