Australian Grand Prix 2012, Albert Park Circuit - Race 1/20

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:12

If you can't remember it well i suggest you go and refresh you memory before then posting yet more inflammatory rubbish.

Button felt he was infront before the corner, and therefore felt he didn't need to give the position back. He team told him to hold position while they checked with the FIA. But the time the FIA decided he had to give the position back Massa had been called into the pits (I think he had also let Alonso past too) and Button was stuck with a penalty.

Seeking clarification from the FIA when situations are not clear cut is perfectly normal and common practice.

Mr Men · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:12

arknor said:
he cries when someone does it to him

When?

Maybe he learned too much from MS, he cried when Hill blocked him too....

JRS · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:13

Mr Men and Skeeter said:
Quite a lot of stuff

You two are getting like sunama and I were back in 2008. Not a great idea guys. Pull up before you hit the ground.

Mr Men · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:14

Skeeter said:
If you can't remember it well i suggest you go and refresh you memory before then posting yet more inflammatory rubbish.

Button felt he was infront before the corner, and therefore felt he didn't need to give the position back. He team told him to hold position while they checked with the FIA. But the time the FIA decided he had to give the position back Massa had been called into the pits (I think he had also let Alonso past too) and Button was stuck with a penalty.

Seeking clarification from the FIA when situations are not clear cut is perfectly normal and common practice.

LOL behave yourself, he cut the track no matter if he was in front, behind, or alongside, he left the track all 4 wheels. Pretty sure your regulations are against such a thing.

Even the commentators called it instantly.

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:14

arknor said:
they should be seeing as barely anyone actually gets a chance at f1 and neither of them were able to show they belonged to be on the grid

Bit harsh? They did a dam site better than some of the back end of the grid Sunday cruisers or pay drivers.

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:17

Mr Men said:
LOL behave yourself, he cut the track no matter if he was in front, behind, or alongside, he left the track all 4 wheels. Pretty sure your regulations are against such a thing.

Even the commentators called it instantly.

On the contrary, F1 is actually one of the few racing series that don't have firm regulations on how many times you can cut the track (when on your own). It's all up to the discresion of the stewards at the time, hence why asking for their view is perfectly acceptable.

Mr Men · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:21

Skeeter said:
On the contrary, F1 is actually one of the few racing series that don't have firm regulations on how many times you can cut the track (when on your own).

Really?

Q: Drivers are now instructed to not deliberately leave the track without good reason. Why?
CW: We’ve seen drivers taking shortcuts on in and out laps, either to save time or fuel. We could put up barriers to stop them exploiting short cuts but it usually looks stupid! The rules say the drivers should use the track. If they don’t, they will need to justify their actions.

It also follows that safety will be improved as other drivers are more likely to know that a car has left the track for a good reason.

So I guess you will cry foul for the Alonso penalty Silverstone 2010? Jenson was not on his own he was racing Massa, left the track with all four wheels to overtake, he gained an advantage. It happens a lot and most teams and drivers just give the position back right away, no need to wait on the FIA, common sense.

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:26

I said firm regulations, as in x number of times and your out. The BTCC use it at key circuits with cutting opportunities, and watching V8 supercars from Adelade cutting the first chicane was monitored by censors and you got a black Mark regardless. One guy even got one for running wide on water that was dropped by another car.

Having the chance to justify your actions is not a firm rule, its a wooly rule up to the discretion of the stewards at the time. It pretty much mandates a discussion with the FIA about it!

Irish_Tom · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:26

Mr Men said:
No driver will give anyone much space round the outside, everyone will try and push the other driver out of track, its a pretty basic racing move we see in every race.

A good example is Lewis passing Massa at Hockenheim 2008, pushes him onto the kerbs and makes sure there is no comeback, textbook squeezing.

So in your view, every time Hamilton and Massa collided last season was Hamilton's fault because he didn't pull out of the corner when Massa squeezed him?

Just trying to work out whether the inside car can ever be at fault if contact is made.

(Genuine question, not trying to stir up trouble).

Mr Men · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:29

Panzerbjorn said:
So in your view, every time Hamilton and Massa collided last season was Hamilton's fault because he didn't pull out of the corner when Massa squeezed him?

Just trying to work out whether the inside car can ever be at fault if contact is made.

(Genuine question, not trying to stir up trouble).

Swings and roundabouts, Lewis was sometimes doing the squeezing and vice versa, the problem was they kept colliding and that always gets the stewards looking for a blame.

Sometimes you just have to think it's a racing incident, like Jenson and Alonso at Canada for example.

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:32

It's far more complicated than just blaming the outside driver every time. That's why we have the stewards panel. It's just a shame they can't seem to get things consistent, but i suppose no 2 incidents are ever going to be identical. There is a culture of blame creeping in though which means more and more genuine racing incidents are ending up with someone getting a penalty.

Irish_Tom · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:36

But who's responsibility is it to avoid a collision?

If the car on the inside sticks to the racing line then they could both get around the corner. However, if the car on the inside drops off the racing line to squeeze the car on the outside and the car on the outside doesn't yield then they collide.

Which one would be deemed as causing an avoidable accident?

Surely the car on the inside can't just assume the other car is going to get out of their way – especially if both drivers are as bloody-minded as Massa and Hamilton.

Are we saying all instances of this should be put down to racing incidents. I liked the end of Sunday's Top Gear where they covered this.

dannyjo22 · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:43

JRS said:
You two are getting like sunama and I were back in 2008.

Hey what about 2009, 10 and part of 11

I haven't really been following the rule changes this close season but am I imagining it when I think I saw something about a rule change regards moving back towards a driver that passes you this year?

I probably dreamed it?

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:43

It depends on who is infront of who as well as who is inside and outside, and who moves on or off line. We could sit on here for hours discussing a single incident. The stewards have to make a decision in minutes.

The causing an avoidable accident thing is a bit of annoyance to me though. Surely everything where a human decision is involved means it can be avoided, meaning the only non avoidable accidents are things like mechanical failures?

Specifically for the Massa Button incident, Button felt he was infront, therefore it was his corner and Massa forced him off the road. Massa and Ferrari felt that button had used going off the road get infront. The FIA agreed with Ferrari, but only after it was to late for Button to give the space back.

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 21:45

dannyjo22 said:
Hey what about 2009, 10 and part of 11

I haven't really been following the rule changes this close season but am I imagining it when I think I saw something about a rule change regards moving back towards a driver that passes you this year?

I probably dreamed it?

You didn't dream it. From this year forward if you move off the racing line to defend you cannot then move back onto it again to take the corner. You must leave a cars width. It's an expansion of the 1 move rule to cover long straights that come before braking zones. Basically, designed to put a lid on things like Schumacher and Hamilton at Monza before someone takes it out of hand.

That said, only 1, maybe 2 of Schumachers many moves would brake this new rule, and it was dam good tv!

dannyjo22 · 14 Mar 2012 at 22:00

Ah thanks I must have seen it in autosport mag or something. Wasn't sure if it was fact or not

I guess it's more designed to stop people running other cars off the road, that happened more than a few times last year. It will help clear up the arguments I suppose about drivers taking the line around corners that make other drivers leave the road.

Maybe

knip · 14 Mar 2012 at 22:11

*sigh*
And so it begins again, and we haven't even had any actual racing yet!

Skeeter · 14 Mar 2012 at 22:33

Begins? Where have you been! It never ended after last season

Actually, where have you been? Not seen you around here over the winter.

smr · 14 Mar 2012 at 22:35

Jenson felt that Massa gave him no option but to move off the track as well, and given how **** Massa is, Jenson was well within the regulations to make such a call and await team orders on what to do

...

knip · 14 Mar 2012 at 22:51

Skeeter said:
Begins? Where have you been! It never ended after last season

Actually, where have you been? Not seen you around here over the winter.

I'm rarely around over the winter break. Football season to depress me!

I've still checked in and out, just now we have some actual racing to WOO about!