Auto or manual

Conscript · 22 Sep 2020 at 08:53

paradigm said:
I really don't get that "white van" video at all. All I see is a relatively slow run down a slip road, culminating in being alongside a MK3 mondeo, potentially over the solid line to the chevrons, after the slip should have merged back into a single lane.

Video certainly doesn't prove that manuals are a better choice, but does prove that you drive like a bell, like 99% of dashcam warriors.

Didn't want to say it, but I felt the same. White van driver didn't seem to be doing much wrong - maybe drifting a bit close sometimes, but generally the distance seemed fine.
Certainly not as dangerous as deciding to pass the Mondeo just as the sliproad was narrowing. If you'd shown me that video with no preconceptions and asked me to identify the bad driving, I would have pointed that out first, followed by lots of poor lane discipline on the motorway.

[TW]Fox · 22 Sep 2020 at 09:02

There is absolutely no way I could change gear quicker than my ZF8HP.

Rroff · 22 Sep 2020 at 09:53

ericmcn said:
This is a clip from a year ago, and that white van was annoying so I decided to leave him annoy someone else at the slip road. No chance can an auto box match the swift response you get from a manual, especially none of the diesel manuals I had the misfortune of driving

I should point out most of the dislikes are from the motley crew at piston heads who drive BMWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7_ipKnqw7Y

A modern sports automatic will change like 3x faster and twice as smooth as that video.

theone8181 · 22 Sep 2020 at 10:57

I do find my dct quite clunky and slow when cold, it also can be annoying when setting off as I will press the accelerator and nothing happens then the clutch engages and it can be hard to not wheelspin (note this is in gearbox setting S5, maybe less of an issue on lower settings).

Simon · 22 Sep 2020 at 11:05

Wheelspin?!

Nasher · 22 Sep 2020 at 11:16

theone8181 said:
I do find my dct quite clunky and slow when cold, it also can be annoying when setting off as I will press the accelerator and nothing happens then the clutch engages and it can be hard to not wheelspin (note this is in gearbox setting S5, maybe less of an issue on lower settings).

Yep that throttle delay is a thing. Seems worse on VAG cars than others too.

jpaul · 22 Sep 2020 at 11:28

[

Conscript said:
If you'd shown me that video with no preconceptions and asked me to identify the bad driving, I would have pointed that out first

video seemed completely self-incriminating - due care and attention , white line prosecution ?

also, like with the recent cyclist what is the registration plate thread, you can't make out the plates until it is really close
]

A modern sports automatic will change like 3x faster

it is when it changes, in response to throttle, kick-down, less so the speed of the change,
if I were over-taking and wanted quick-acceleration eg 5-3rd, or wanted to hold a gear, would the auto provide as fast a response & safe control.

gailjon · 22 Sep 2020 at 12:18

jpaul said:
if I were over-taking and wanted quick-acceleration eg 5-3rd, or wanted to hold a gear, would the auto provide as fast a response & safe control.

If you use the paddle gears that many autos have now it probably would.

The main issue with autos (and I have driven autos for years now), is the lack of connection to the car. It always feels like there is a a barrier between you and the engine if that makes sense.

[TW]Fox · 22 Sep 2020 at 12:25

jpaul said:
if I were over-taking and wanted quick-acceleration eg 5-3rd, or wanted to hold a gear, would the auto provide as fast a response & safe control.

I made sure my current car had the Sport Automatic transmission option to get the paddles.

I now find I never use them. It is always in the correct gear within milliseconds. I won't buy a manual ever again.

Kenai · 22 Sep 2020 at 12:27

To be frank that sort of multi-gear unpredictable change is where DSG really struggles next to a traditional TC auto and I still don't find it troublesome.

vanpeebles · 22 Sep 2020 at 12:44

The thread topic makes me think of Scud Race.

Simon · 22 Sep 2020 at 12:55

jpaul said:
it is when it changes, in response to throttle, kick-down, less so the speed of the change,
if I were over-taking and wanted quick-acceleration eg 5-3rd, or wanted to hold a gear, would the auto provide as fast a response & safe control.

A manual has no kick down. Floor it and it does nothing but lug the engine ! You have to select the gear yourself which is what any driver of a auto with paddles can also do

jpaul · 22 Sep 2020 at 13:57

no kick down .... true, but on the manual, you simultaneously drop 2 gears and push the accelerator - make is so;
as opposed to, a potenial ambiguity, of just the pedal.

but - I take foxes point the paddles would work fine, assuming you can use them twice in quick succession -
great guy & video didn't catch him dropping 2, but it was probably too fast for me. (would Lewis be as friendly)
F1 Driver Robert Kubica in BMW M4 on the Nürburgring! | Fast&Fun

ericmcn · 22 Sep 2020 at 19:57

jpaul said:
it's not black and white

when you start off in your ev, you're pulling lots of amps from the battery(heat/degradation), and the best ev motor efficiency is at a higher rpm,
so, there could be merit in a clutch+gearbox to keep the motor in the 'band', and protect the battery~~nhs,~~ despite the weight and mechanical complexity.

eg https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/electric-motor-power-really-simple-and-hp-ratings/

But they don't need the complexity or weight of a fully fledged gearbox to do this, clever power electronic circuitry could do all that and restrict power to a given motor easily enough. One of the reasons Hybrids/EVs use CVT transmission is due to the fact them type have no 'gears' themselves so very much suited to an electric motor

Jonnycoupe · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:01

No EV uses CVT and they all use gearboxs. The point being made is the use of multi speed gearboxs.

the power electronics and switching frequency of inverters is the exact reason a multi speed gearbox has potential benefits. Good if it means you can downsize a motor and still give decent slope climbing without cooking the inverter.

Rroff · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:03

jpaul said:
it is when it changes, in response to throttle, kick-down, less so the speed of the change,
if I were over-taking and wanted quick-acceleration eg 5-3rd, or wanted to hold a gear, would the auto provide as fast a response & safe control.

I've never had a problem with mine - also as mentioned you generally get the ability to manually take some control if you want - either via paddles or range shifting. If you have kick-down it pretty much just gives you the best output for power within milliseconds of needing it.

One thing I will say is that a lot of automatics are a bit ponderous for around town driving, etc. especially as the normal driving mode these days has often been tweaked to be an eco mode with all the current emissions stuff, etc. - shove them in sport and drive a bit spiritedly and they become a completely different beast.

EDIT: I will say this is where I diverge from smaller engine cars - where you probably can get more response out of them on a manual if you need to pre-emptively drop a couple of gears and go - on a decent size V6 or V8 with a good auto it is another story. Albeit I've not driven a smaller engine auto in a while but I found them pretty hateful for this reason.

theone8181 · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:12

Nasher said:
Yep that throttle delay is a thing. Seems worse on VAG cars than others too.

It's actually a BMW e92 (m3) so a bit more prone to wheelspin than a normal vag car

. Seems bit inconsistent, I don't know if it's to do with the auto braking kicking in maybe? As in when stopped if I keep foot on the brake for a couple of seconds it holds the breaks on. Wheelspin can be quite easy (and annoying). At least with a manual it's more consistent, there's no ECU guessing what you want to do.

ericmcn · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:22

Conscript said:
I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove with this video. You're claiming that your ability to accelerate away from a van down a sliproad was purely due to having a manual gearbox, and that such a move would be impossible with an automatic?
Pretty certain you would have been able to do that just as swiftly in a similarly fast car with a modern automatic box.

Not quite sure what you mean by "swift response" here. If you're referring to how swiftly it can physically change gears, this is not true. I don't think there's any argument that an automatic gearbox can shift gears more quickly than you can with a manual.
If you're talking about swiftness in more general terms, ie how quickly the car responds while remaining in gear...then what relevance is the gearbox if you aren't shifting? The "swiftness" is more a function of other factors - power, weight, traction etc.

I have driven loads of cars, 5.5L Supercharged V8s to clumsy diesels of various sizes. My thoughts are that you cannot beat a sharp precise manual in a decent petrol car and hydraulic steering (also on the Subaru) is another thing that is seemingly absent on cars nowadays - Then again it depends if you prefer the whole interaction thing, I never even red lined the Subaru back then but gave it enough poke to get some progress.

ericmcn · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:27

paradigm said:
I really don't get that "white van" video at all. All I see is a relatively slow run down a slip road, culminating in being alongside a MK3 mondeo, potentially over the solid line to the chevrons, after the slip should have merged back into a single lane.

Video certainly doesn't prove that manuals are a better choice, but does prove that you drive like a bell, like 99% of dashcam warriors.

I try and make some progress, unlike everyone else it seems out there contend with dithering around and my Subaru certainly helps in that aspect. The Mondeo looked like a typical useless dithering driver, in no mans land neither on a slip road or a motorway lane and about to get swallowed up by a truck -- that driver should have made some progress or indicated to move into a lane but doing 30 mph its hard to see what they are trying to do.

ericmcn · 22 Sep 2020 at 20:41

Conscript said:
I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove with this video. You're claiming that your ability to accelerate away from a van down a sliproad was purely due to having a manual gearbox, and that such a move would be impossible with an automatic?
Pretty certain you would have been able to do that just as swiftly in a similarly fast car with a modern automatic box.

Not quite sure what you mean by "swift response" here. If you're referring to how swiftly it can physically change gears, this is not true. I don't think there's any argument that an automatic gearbox can shift gears more quickly than you can with a manual.
If you're talking about swiftness in more general terms, ie how quickly the car responds while remaining in gear...then what relevance is the gearbox if you aren't shifting? The "swiftness" is more a function of other factors - power, weight, traction etc.

This 'swift response' in the clip below - unless you are used to driving manuals cars you wont get it. Manual boxes come into their own on a B road or a track, such as here

Modern autos can change gears very very quickly but they cannot react to conditions and anticipate changes like a human brain can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Itn2IdWHM