You need to back that up on a track, give me a M3 manual and you take a DCT auto. A 2008 manual has basically the same performance from stock as a 2012 auto. Why are you so confident that the DCT would still be faster?
You need to back that up on a track, give me a M3 manual and you take a DCT auto. A 2008 manual has basically the same performance from stock as a 2012 auto. Why are you so confident that the DCT would still be faster?
Soldato
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Not arms, legs like arnie to be able to depress the clutch
But it was another thing that really linked the driving to the feel of the car/engine
I guess it was unimportant to eric
Our Octavia is sluggish with a dual clutch, it has to think about changing down when you floor it from 40 for example, rather than the other car which we have being manual, you can shift down to 2nd before you even hit the gas, there is easily a half a second delay in the DCT.
If you stick it in manual and try to go too fast it can also miss a shift or two so instead of going from 6th to 2nd you find yourself in 3rd or 4th.
A BMW M3 manual is 200mS slower to 60mph than a M3 DCT with equal top end speed, 200mS.. in a straight line the DCT would win quite easy but races are not won in a straight line, are they? on corners whether its going into corners or leaving them and attempting overtakes in such a situation the manual would have the advantage - its a human brain and a very good manual transmission v a computer - a DCT will sometimes have indecisive moments in such situations while deciding what gear is best and the manual would already be on its way.
It’s not magic, you are probably nailing it in 4th and it’s thinking “I need 2nd” which is on the same shaft, so can’t pre-select.
When you “floor it” in your manual, you are likely changing gear first, otherwise you’ll be trying to pull away outside of the power band which will be slower than waiting for the gear selection anyway. Try changing down yourself before flooring the DSG, even manually shifting down one gear will likely mean that the box can preselect the correct gear for maximum power when requested.
Anticipation and driving the car properly is the key. Took me all of a week to learn the S Tronic box in the S3 and where the likely shift points for each gear were. Once you know that you can drive to the conditions/scenario just fine.
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I can now see from your post that you have never driven a good automated manual, dual clutch or even decent torque converter.
Paddle shift is faster on track, period. Honestly, go look at the average race car, or even track car, a decent one that’s used for competitive driving will more often than not (unless the class rules disallow) be a semi automatic, this isn’t co-incidence or a mark of modern racing drivers not wanting the same driver involvement, it’s maths.
Then again if the Octavia is a diesel its a totally different situation than a manual petrol, I can get to about 100mph in 4th, and 3rd is good for 70 - so in a few gears I can get banned from the road and more important it doesn't take too long to get from one to another either. The overtaking speed 30-70/80 is also an important figure for me, I want to overtake useless road hoggers quickly and safely and have not been let down with the manual box
Exactly, in the manual I can see what's coming and get into the appropriate gear, the DSG just tends to whack it in 6th if I back off over about 34mph. So that fun S bend along the B6045, in the 6MT car i'll drop it into 3rd at 60 on approach, you can see what the exit looks like half way around at which point you can floor it and take the second part of the S at full beans or back off if it isn't appropriate. The DSG just wants to sit in 6th & then when you floor it out of the S it decides to fanny around for the best part of a second figuring out what it wants to do. 6th > 4th > 3rd (Middle of the bend so ease off a bit) 4th > 6th > (Bit More Gas) 5th > 4th > 3rd (back off for the negative camber bit) > 5th > 6th.
Just stay in 3rd FFS!
And no, manual mode as stared previously is pants, a quick down, down, down doesn't guarantee 6th to 3rd, it can leave you sat in 4th.
Nothing wrong with a manual Subaru, Subaru use the 6MT in all the fastest cars they sell and its highly sought after by other Subaru owners.
- Ph is just full of leased out BMW fanboys who just cant accept not everyone wants to drive a white goods washing machine, some fickle posters get all sad and send some complaints to a moderator if anyone says something bad about a German car, a pretty desperate attempt at a motoring forum it has become
I have nothing against Autos, I am getting a V8 with a ZF next but a good manual box provides driver engagement and feedback you wont get with an automatic, the Subaru has hydraulic steering also which is another thumbs up from me. How many cars have hydraulic steering now...?
Not entirely convinced however, with a manual its very much dependent on the driver - not just the 600 year old Nissan 200SX that left everyone trailing but to ensure I am not biased on JDM here is a BMW M3 Manual doing the ring in 7:05 - A few modifications but the engine is stock
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1137714
When they say autos change X faster than a manual, they are comparing with the average geriatric casually wafting along. Not some superhands driving a track rocket.
A bit like mpg stats etc. They will pick the most favorable scenario.
Everyone compares acceleration times because it's easy, but sometimes manuals do come out quicker on tracks with a good, consistent driver. The difference is small really.
A bit like mpg stats etc. They will pick the most favorable scenario.
Everyone compares acceleration times because it's easy, but sometimes manuals do come out quicker on tracks with a good, consistent driver. The difference is small really.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_time
There's a list of official shift times of various automatic transmissions there. The slowest is 290ms. Even if those times are optimistic, I can't see a human driver ever coming close to that (without a sequential box).
Soldato
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I think it all depends on the car and type of driving. 535d touring great with auto box, but revvy M3's better as manual. Didn't help that older SMG auto boxes were not the best, sure the newer versions are much better?
Soldato
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I would love to time shifts in a manual, obviously 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 4th will be quick, with in-between being a bit slower. I reckon I could do 0.5s easily, maybe a second and half from 2nd to 3rd.
Except it isn't at all because you don't think about what gear to be in, it is just a natural passive motion almost like breathing.
I do agree with your other sentiments though. In a "daily driver" if you like, trudging around in traffic, auto all the way. It is so much more relaxing.
A second and a half? Nan, is that you?
On an acceleration run I did in my Corolla T-Sport in 2019 the gearshifts range from 190ms to 250ms.
It lended itself to quick gearchanges though. In most other cars I take more like 450~ms for a non abusive quick gearchange (I had a quick look at soundwaves for my Polo, V70R, S60, and E30) 300~ms in the Primera. In an MX5 I'm probably about the same as the Primera, but I have no recordings of those.
Whether it is a vertical change or not doesn't affect me that much for some reason... Apparently the average driver takes twice as long to execute a horizontal shift vs a vertical one which I guess makes sense, but for me I suppose most of the time must be taken up by the pedal movement not the gearstick movement.
Obviously it doesn't happen as fast when I'm just pottering around, because there is no point!
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it is still, less, the shift times, and rather, determining which gear you get, that counts for safety+control.
I read this thread on f80 bmw dct which said in manual, if you want to jump down several gears you, hold the left paddle and it will go the lowest where you are not in the red line,
which might be too low, and leave you with inadequate headroom to complete the manouver.
I don't know how this is controlled in automatic mode.
If the dct did descend the gears sequentially, instead, obviously the total shift time can end up greater than a human with a manual.
edit: lets have a fly-by-wire/artificial stick shift in cars ... this would fix it, for us luddites