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A manual will change as fast as you can change it. Being consistent is the hard bit. 290ms isnt all that quick.
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Man of Honour
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I'm absolutely in the automatic transmission camp, but you can rival a DCT in shift time even with a H-Pattern
That's a 217ms shift on my old MX5, the trailing and leading edges of the ignition timing are the flat shift spark retard being applied and taken back out which is done off the clutch switch. The margin of error is huge though, 25% of the time I'd completely miss the gate and end up somewhere in no mans land between 3rd and 5th. A DCT isn't going to make that mistake
Like the MX5, the S2000 box is amazing for changing fast, even on track. But a M-DCT will do a change in 80ms, every time. Especially if you chose the right setting rather than going for the 'feel good settings' that give a bigger thump but slightly slow.
A DCT is effectively two manual gearboxes in one housing controlled by a computer. Until a manual driver has two clutch pedals they will never match a DCT and its ability to blend the clutches.
Also what seems to be missed by those who have never driven on, you can drive 100% manual, the gearbox will only do what you ask it to. There is no guessing going on, nor any need to block change anyway. Why go from 6th to 3rd when you can properly go through the gears by counting paddles pressed
A DCT is effectively two manual gearboxes in one housing controlled by a computer. Until a manual driver has two clutch pedals they will never match a DCT and its ability to blend the clutches.
Also what seems to be missed by those who have never driven on, you can drive 100% manual, the gearbox will only do what you ask it to. There is no guessing going on, nor any need to block change anyway. Why go from 6th to 3rd when you can properly go through the gears by counting paddles pressed
I'm absolutely in the automatic transmission camp, but you can rival a DCT in shift time even with a H-Pattern
That's a 217ms shift on my old MX5, the trailing and leading edges of the ignition timing are the flat shift spark retard being applied and taken back out which is done off the clutch switch. The margin of error is huge though, 25% of the time I'd completely miss the gate and end up somewhere in no mans land between 3rd and 5th. A DCT isn't going to make that mistake
I stand corrected. You can rival a DCT.
Although 290ms was the slowest speed on the list. M-DCT was listed at 80ms. Most of the autos on that list had a shift time of around 100ms. That's apparently the time it takes to blink.
If a human can't even blink that fast, I doubt they could clutch in, manipulate a gear stick, clutch out that fast - at least not for any horizontal gears. And, as you say...do it consistently without missing a gear.
Ignoring the truism, so we could generalise and say that auto boxes shift consistently faster than a human ever could then?
That was my point - they don't say "autos are xx faster than a manual". They give actual figures on shift times. So it's easy to compare their speed objectively without pretending they are assuming that the manual is being driving by a "wafting geriatric".
Exactly. All this stuff about "automatics are unpredictable / not always in the right gear" is completely moot on any auto which can be controlled in a manual mode. I am not quite sure why anyone is still trying to make objective arguments for manuals being quicker.
I think it's likely to be a mix of "never actually driven a good semi/DCT/auto" and some arcane, archaic belief that manual transmissions are for driving gods only, automatics are for the weak!
If all you've driven is an old 4 or 5 speed torque converter, then you don't really have any insight to add for the automatic side of the argument.
Also the 80ms is a typical change, in the D3 setting which has no jerk or 'inertia shift' ( this is when it accelerates slightly hard after a gearchange (odd feeling when you first experience). it can do a 30ms shift.
But actually longer shifts can make the car faster due to the inertia. there was a detailed post on this but can only find this at the moment which is a very high level summary
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3213213
This tuned one probably has the M3 GTS software but look at how fast a M-DCT can change.
https://youtu.be/BuDF6YhREJw
But actually longer shifts can make the car faster due to the inertia. there was a detailed post on this but can only find this at the moment which is a very high level summary
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3213213
This tuned one probably has the M3 GTS software but look at how fast a M-DCT can change.
https://youtu.be/BuDF6YhREJw
Man of Honour
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I don't even think he can sit there and say manuals are good because old torque convertor autos are bad.
I know it's very application specific, but a 2 speed powerglide is the king of the drag strip. They've been around since the dynosaurs themselves
Just read the rest of the thread and I must say ericmcn's nonsense postings are quite amusing... And he's still sharing that clip of him driving like a knob, cutting up a mondeo, changing gear poorly, as if there is something to be proud of in there... 
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Soldato
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Quite good watching this guys vids
I forgot he did one on the Maclaren last year
He compares it to his S2000 so around the best any human is going to get
Cant embed for some reason
Shoes the effect of two modes on the changes
https://drivetribe.com/p/how-fast-c...OHd-SzGfDkrL58aSNQ?iid=ACMXW-oyTXuemZgyBQUsNg
I forgot he did one on the Maclaren last year
He compares it to his S2000 so around the best any human is going to get
Cant embed for some reason
Shoes the effect of two modes on the changes
https://drivetribe.com/p/how-fast-c...OHd-SzGfDkrL58aSNQ?iid=ACMXW-oyTXuemZgyBQUsNg
Shame he only has a 20hz logger, but it seems the track mode on mclaren has some sort of engineered in ‘kick’ too which slows the change but feels better. Slower change doesn’t necessarily mean slower car either.
That link I shared they were using 300hz
here’s an old vid of my old s2000 at donington in 2012. That thing could hammer thru the gears. 12:45 you might see a car you recognise (NigeP’s golf)https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N1uiifYqDOI
Also I have this one of a M3 DCT on the N ring at a BMW event I did in 2012. Listen how quick that changes, blew me away back then and finally got my own 5yrs later. https://youtu.be/OyGQPaz-Q0M
That link I shared they were using 300hz
here’s an old vid of my old s2000 at donington in 2012. That thing could hammer thru the gears. 12:45 you might see a car you recognise (NigeP’s golf)https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N1uiifYqDOI
Also I have this one of a M3 DCT on the N ring at a BMW event I did in 2012. Listen how quick that changes, blew me away back then and finally got my own 5yrs later. https://youtu.be/OyGQPaz-Q0M
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Man of Honour
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I could dig out some GTR logs, that'll be in region of 100hz of you were interested
So here is a good review of auto Vs manual - nothing to do with Subaru but a BMW M3 -DCT Vs 6 Speed Manual
His opinion is pretty much what is what I have said all along, Autos are or can be good (depending on what auto box you have) but they lack the character and involvement a manual brings, they just cannot replicate it - no matter what anyone says.
I have driven loads of manuals, some dogs and then ended up driving the Subaru with its 6 speed - now that is a proper manual box and Its not unlike the BMW M3 one - it also has anti stall and is good for over 600bhp, so basically once you drive a decent manual you get a fantastic connection and engagement to the drivetrain and engine in a glorious manner that autos fail to achieve. I am only talking petrol engines here btw. Any diesel manual I had was absolutely useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGMOkiK4Y0
His opinion is pretty much what is what I have said all along, Autos are or can be good (depending on what auto box you have) but they lack the character and involvement a manual brings, they just cannot replicate it - no matter what anyone says.
I have driven loads of manuals, some dogs and then ended up driving the Subaru with its 6 speed - now that is a proper manual box and Its not unlike the BMW M3 one - it also has anti stall and is good for over 600bhp, so basically once you drive a decent manual you get a fantastic connection and engagement to the drivetrain and engine in a glorious manner that autos fail to achieve. I am only talking petrol engines here btw. Any diesel manual I had was absolutely useless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGMOkiK4Y0
Just read the rest of the thread and I must say ericmcn's nonsense postings are quite amusing... And he's still sharing that clip of him driving like a knob, cutting up a mondeo, changing gear poorly, as if there is something to be proud of in there...
The Mondeo in no mans land about to be driven over by a truck?? Unlike said Ford I can make some progress from a slip road, even with **** gear changes to the motorway itself - in that case lane 3, in a few seconds apparently.
I can also overtake slow moving vehicles and drivers unable to do the same, another benefit of a manual on B roads...
https://youtu.be/z7rObebW25s
I really fail to see what that has got to do with anything... An auto could have achieved exactly the same daft manoeuvre in the same or less time.
Not really, maybe this has improved on more recent or expensive DCT boxes but in the wifes Skoda there can be a noticeable delay between requesting a shift & it actually carrying it out, not always mind you.
I've been out in the car to do a bit of shopping this evening so I thought i'd let my phone record wide angle so you can see the rev counter & shift lever, the lag sometimes is massive, enough time to have my hands both back on the wheel before the shift commences. There is also a pretty good clip of me trying to go from 5th to 2nd with 3 quick shifts which results in the car going to 4th and then a big enough delay for me to think it's missed my instruction entirely after me putting my hand back on the wheel so i have another go for 3rd at least at which point it decides to comply & change to second just as I grab the shifter.
It feels so sloppy & disconnected.
I really fail to see what that has got to do with anything... An auto could have achieved exactly the same daft manoeuvre in the same or less time.
ok....
Yes but they are boring, some people actually like the analogue feedback a manual transmission provides.
I see no one answered my last question about the most expensive cars sold and what they had in common -- for sure it was not an automatic transmission, yes? That should be telling itself
No point in a super quick change if you have to wait for it to respond lol
Yes, "ok...." is right.
High end exotica having automatic transmissions is telling of what exactly? To me it further proves that they are better, faster, more capable, more suited to extremely high end performance cars.
I'm sure it means something totally different to you though, some consipracy or something.
You're really flip flopping between "manuals are better/faster" and "manuals are more fun" - which is it? One is subjectively true. The other is objectively false.