Auto or manual

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

do the police spec manual in traffic cars ?

haven't yet bought an auto, but I think theres a range of driving behaviour on the road where you can see impact of automatic
- approaching roundabouts, people braking as opposed to engine braking, and, also not being in the right gear to negotiate/join roundabout,
people who then stop unnecessarily at roundabouts because they can't control the gear they need, that's a dumbing down of skill.
- overtaking, people drifting past, because they haven't down-shifted before-hand to provide quicker response once they decide to proceed,
so their exposure, and mine, being overtaken, is longer
- even, bends in the road, people brakeing because they can't employ engine braking.

Cant speak for the other manus, but quite a lot of the audis specifically disengage the engine from the gearbox now in what they call coasting mode

Edit to add that applies equally to manuals and autos

 

[Kenai]

do the police spec manual in traffic cars ?

haven't yet bought an auto, but I think theres a range of driving behaviour on the road where you can see impact of automatic
- approaching roundabouts, people braking as opposed to engine braking, and, also not being in the right gear to negotiate/join roundabout,
people who then stop unnecessarily at roundabouts because they can't control the gear they need, that's a dumbing down of skill.
- overtaking, people drifting past, because they haven't down-shifted before-hand to provide quicker response once they decide to proceed,
so their exposure, and mine, being overtaken, is longer
- even, bends in the road, people brakeing because they can't employ engine braking.

I don't think any of this is a result of automatic cars frankly.

Autos can still engine brake and i've never once had an issue approaching roundabouts and being in the wrong gear, nor have i ever had to stop unnecessarily.
Overtaking is much easier, foot to the floor, it picks the gear where maximum acceleration will be and away you go, no idea why you think an auto would result in a slower response or needing to drift past - this is more likely to be people in manual 2.0TDIs who think they have all the torque in the world and refuse to change out of 6th.
People braking in bends that they don't need to is just because they're crap drivers, not because they have an auto, as said, they can still engine brake

 

[paradigm]

Cant speak for the other manus, but quite a lot of the audis specifically disengage the engine from the gearbox now in what they call coasting mode

This only happened in my S3 if the Drive Select was in "Economy" mode. Any other driving mode (Comfort, Automatic, Dynamic, Individual) would result in normal coasting in-gear. Also, tapping the downshift paddle (or tapping the brake) would result in the car re-engaging the clutch even in economy mode.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

This only happened in my S3 if the Drive Select was in "Economy" mode. Any other driving mode (Comfort, Automatic, Dynamic, Individual) would result in normal coasting in-gear. Also, tapping the downshift paddle (or tapping the brake) would result in the car re-engaging the clutch even in economy mode.

They've been playing around with it, in my TT MK3 I am pretty sure it does it in all but dynamic, was quite a lot of talk about it and some people swearing it had changed when their cars had been serviced and software updated

They are obviously pushing it more as it lowers emissions on testing

 

[paradigm]

Well my S3 was in for software back in May and nothing had changed. The MK3 TTS I had as a loaner also acted in an identical way to my S3.

 

[Rroff]

Autos can still engine brake and i've never once had an issue approaching roundabouts and being in the wrong gear, nor have i ever had to stop unnecessarily.
Overtaking is much easier, foot to the floor, it picks the gear where maximum acceleration will be and away you go, no idea why you think an auto would result in a slower response or needing to drift past - this is more likely to be people in manual 2.0TDIs who think they have all the torque in the world and refuse to change out of 6th.
People braking in bends that they don't need to is just because they're crap drivers, not because they have an auto, as said, they can still engine brake

Yup - in normal drive mode (now economy) mine uses engine breaking conservatively but usually gets it right - I pretty much never have to brake in a corner any different to a manual - as you say people who do that are just poor drivers. In sport mode I've got literally engine braking for days and it pretty much nails it - might have to get a video of it sometime.

To be fair my truck has a tweaked version of the auto from the 370Z so it is generally pretty decent especially if you drive positively.

 

[squerble]

but to compare them to starter handles, manual chokes, etc is missing the point a bit.

I'm not sure that's fair - manual transmissions have stuck around in Europe purely as a price leader, often £1,000 or more cheaper on each model. The same way automatic chokes and starter motors would have been expensive luxuries to start with, an automatic gearbox is fast becoming the norm.

There's always going to be a slight bias in a "Motors" sub-forum, but for 99% of the people on the road an automatic is the better option. Even as someone who enjoys a good manual, more than 99% of the time I'm driving in traffic in which only an automatic makes sense, and for that couple of hours a year I might find myself on some back roads having a hoon it's not worth spoiling the rest of my days driving a manual around.

If it's someone's (your?) preference to have a manual all the time, that's fine. But to deride people as poorer drivers for not wanting to stick with a Victorian practise of manual manipulating gears is harsh.

 

[jpaul]

Autos can still engine brake

I mean, at what point the auto realises you want the engine braking you'd get from a manual, coming to a bend, where you may drop 6 to 5or4th, as you lift off,
versus just lifting off on a straight because the lights changed 300m ahead.

 

[Justintime]

Will there even be a manual option in a few years? Aren't most exotics already auto? Seems with Hybrids and EV being the future its a dead end.

 

[Kenai]

I mean, at what point the auto realises you want the engine braking you'd get from a manual, coming to a bend, where you may drop 6 to 5or4th, as you lift off,
versus just lifting off on a straight because the lights changed 300m ahead.

Depends, on mine in D it'll be gentle, in S it'll be more aggressive or if I want to influence it in a particular scenario I can just manually override with the paddles/selector for a bit. On some a brief tap of the brakes indicates to the box you wish to slow down more than just coasting and it will downshift earlier than if you simply came off the throttle.

 

[R.P.L]

Will there even be a manual option in a few years? Aren't most exotics already auto? Seems with Hybrids and EV being the future its a dead end.

It's a niche market for sure, . If petrol engines do get phased out completely then of course at that point there won't be any manuals.

Cant speak for the other manus, but quite a lot of the audis specifically disengage the engine from the gearbox now in what they call coasting mode

Edit to add that applies equally to manuals and autos

That sounds like a complete pain in the arse to be honest. I'm sure they've found a way to make it relatively unobtrusive but I'd still find it very annoying.

 

[Conscript]

I'm not sure that's fair - manual transmissions have stuck around in Europe purely as a price leader, often £1,000 or more cheaper on each model. The same way automatic chokes and starter motors would have been expensive luxuries to start with, an automatic gearbox is fast becoming the norm.

The discussion was turning to drivers enjoyment, and MKN was comparing manual gearboxes to things like chokes and starter handles disappearing...I was just pointing out that they have never been considered to be intrinsic to driving enjoyment (as far as I know) though.
But as MKN pointed out, he was being a bit tongue in cheek anyway.

There's always going to be a slight bias in a "Motors" sub-forum, but for 99% of the people on the road an automatic is the better option. Even as someone who enjoys a good manual, more than 99% of the time I'm driving in traffic in which only an automatic makes sense, and for that couple of hours a year I might find myself on some back roads having a hoon it's not worth spoiling the rest of my days driving a manual around.

If it's someone's (your?) preference to have a manual all the time, that's fine. But to deride people as poorer drivers for not wanting to stick with a Victorian practise of manual manipulating gears is harsh.

Not sure if that part of your post was aimed at me, but that's essentially the same thing I've said. I prefer a manual for fun, but I don't think that makes me part of some driving master race - at no point have I derided automatics.

There's also seems to be an assumption that you like one or the other. What about both? As I said earlier, it depends on the car and the usage. I wouldn't want my GT86 to be automatic, but when I'm driving our other car to the shops (boring SUV), having to change my own gears is something I'm not in the least bit interested in doing.

 

[Rroff]

I mean, at what point the auto realises you want the engine braking you'd get from a manual, coming to a bend, where you may drop 6 to 5or4th, as you lift off,
versus just lifting off on a straight because the lights changed 300m ahead.

TBH not something easy to explain - after a bit you learn to manipulate its behaviour.

 

[Kenai]

TBH not something easy to explain - after a bit you learn to manipulate its behaviour.

This is something I came to realise - automatics are actually considerably more controllable than I previously thought but the control is via your pedal inputs (and/or paddles these days if you want) rather than moving a stick around.

(you can go 'full lazy' and just let it do whatever if you want, before someone starts down the 'why bother if you have to control it' route)

 

[jpaul]

automatics are actually considerably more controllable than I previously thought but the control is via your pedal inputs (and/or paddles these days if you want) rather than moving a stick around.

gearless ev's would have similar issue ... modifying the degree of regen on touch screen ? (wonder how many buttons lewis has for kers), ideally car would determine what was likely to be re required, based on road profile, or what you did last timelap

 

[Kenai]

gearless ev's would have similar issue ... modifying the degree of regen on touch screen ? (wonder how many buttons lewis has for kers), ideally car would determine what was likely to be re required, based on road profile, or what you did last timelap

EVs have opened up a potential alternative with things like Nissan's e-pedal, where one pedal operation is possible as the depressed position is accelerate and the released position is decelerate and somewhere in the middle is 'neutral'

 

[squerble]

Not sure if that part of your post was aimed at me, but that's essentially the same thing I've said. I prefer a manual for fun, but I don't think that makes me part of some driving master race - at no point have I derided automatics.

Not at all - it was more a general comment but I put the (yours?) in brackets in case you were in that camp. No offence intended

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That sounds like a complete pain in the arse to be honest. I'm sure they've found a way to make it relatively unobtrusive but I'd still find it very annoying.

Not really, at the start it catches you out since most of are used to some extent the impact of the engine braking
When you get a little more used to it, you either lift off considerably further out and coast in from further, you cn clearly see some dont like this who follow you since it changes the speed profile that you scrub off to a lower amount, so someone following may have to brake then would lose ground more
Of course you can stay on the power and lift off and brake a lot later

Its actually quite surprising how far you can coast whilst not scrubbing off that much speed

You still have aero speed scrubbing and transmission so its not like you have gone from significant amounts to none, maybe a reduction of (from the seat of the pants measure) maybe a 40-50% reduction

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I mean, at what point the auto realises you want the engine braking you'd get from a manual, coming to a bend, where you may drop 6 to 5or4th, as you lift off,
versus just lifting off on a straight because the lights changed 300m ahead.

Yeah most of the time the modern ones seem to be pretty good, they do occasionally get it wrong, as others have said once you learn the tricks you can generally find they way to drive them to trigger auto box behaviour
At the end of the day they are reacting to programmed events, so going full throttle to no throttle could trigger a different reaction to going full to half to off
Certainly I know when tuning engines now above a simple map they recommend doing an auto box reprogramme as well (some cars I have seen have this combined with diff tuning as well) on some cars since the engine behaviour changes and as such you want to change the boc behaviour to best match that new engine behaviour. Also like with so many things the OEM settings are not necessarily aimed at the best driving experience and to eek out lower emissions etc

With the box being controlled by a computer its certainly possible they could integrate more input parameters integrating with sat nav for example would allow it to look ahead and recalculate the best gear so i could for example do exactly what you say, switch from 6th (more likely 8th for many) to say 5th as you lift off or reduce throttle in advance of a corner. I not sure it would make that much difference in reality.

One thing I am always cautious of, very much a criticism in the old days of the dumb auto is tuned supras was they could suddenly decided to change gear mid corner, inducing lift off oversteer if not careful, I believe most of those sorts of issues are long solved with thrust angles in the equation to avoid repeating that scenario, via some basic G or steering angle sensors I assume. One thing thats pretty common amongst most humans is a want to be in control, some are more or less willing to give soe of that up for convenience or an easy life, and in this case some "driving feel"

 

[Kenai]

With the box being controlled by a computer its certainly possible they could integrate more input parameters integrating with sat nav for example would allow it to look ahead and recalculate the best gear so i could for example do exactly what you say, switch from 6th (more likely 8th for many) to say 5th as you lift off or reduce throttle in advance of a corner. I not sure it would make that much difference in reality.

I think the latest generations of BMWs are doing this now - certainly recall seeing it mentioned in reviews of things like the M340i and X3 M40i recently.