Bahrain GP 2009 - Race 4/17

Mclaren didn't cheat though, they lied that was all. Serious offence. But not similar to BAR.

They did cheat, they cheated another driver out of a position. The lie they told was cheating. BAR were done for the same thing, they were asked a direct question on whether the fuel tank was empty. They said yes, the car was then inverted to pump more fuel out of the car.

As to how the cars where usually checked BAR were not lieing. The fia changed the way they pumped the car dry so BAR were lieing. As said earlier this year, BAR were not the only team to run that system, yet they were the only ones to have the car lifted and pumped dry.

BAR got two races on the basis of a lie. 4 more teams on the grid changed there system.

To me it's the same thing as mclaren.

Just listen to Max it's blantantly obvious they just wanted Ron, which sickens me tbh. All this talk of a culture change and honesty at macca thats got them off. Whitmarsh has been up to his eyeballs in it as well.
 
No they did not, that was hamiltons place and he would have got it, if they did not lie.

But they did lie in an attempt to cheat another driver out of a position. They were unsure of the rules so they lied instead in the hope of cheating a driver out of a position regardless if the truth would have meant Hamilton got his rightfull place back. Instead they took the option to lie.

Anyway they got off with it and whitmarsh must have no gag reflex.
 
Obviously getting rid of Ron was the real objective. In the interests of consistency they should have banned Mclaren for two races like BAR.

Is it just me who thinks this idea of "keeping it consistent with BAR's punishment" is insane?

BAR plotted to break the rules. It must have took considerable meetings, design drawings etc to actually design their car in that way. It's a bit like why manslaughter sentences are nowhere near as harsh as murder sentences...

McLaren didn't "plot" to lie. It just happened.

What Schumi did at Monaco is a more valid comparison but even then. Schumi must have plotted to do that. By his own accord. It wasn't something that happened where he made a bad decision.

I think the FIA have, finally, got one of their penalties spot on.
 
Of course Mclaren plotted to lie, they had plenty of time before the stewards hearing to come up with a story. I would think it's pretty obvious they did lie. Hamilton himself even said he was uncomfortable with being told to lie. Surely thats a plot?

The Fia said they would come down hard on any cheats, well as mclaren are already on probation for one count of cheating they haven't come down hard at all.

The BAR thing couldn't have took that much plotting and planning if atleast 4 other teams used the exact same system built by the same people.
 
But they did lie in an attempt to cheat another driver out of a position..

no they didnt, it was their position becuase the other driver fell off the track. mclaren did nothing wrong on the track that cost anyone any positions.

it was by giving a position *back* that started the issue.
 
Thats what I have always thought also - McLaren did absolutely nothing wrong at all on the track - therefore the points shouldnt have been taken away.

Yes they lied about something after the finishing line - it didnt alter the actual race what so ever

Im sure if it was any other team the FIA wouldnt have excluded them from those results (well ok the Stewards, but if they didnt have input from Smacked Max then I will eat my hat)
 
I'm going to explain this one slowly, so maybe those of us on here who consider me to be an anti-McLaren Antichrist (or should that be Anti-Messiah™ har-de-ha-ha) will finally get it.

1) It's the closing stages of the Australian GP. The safety car comes out. Trulli goes wide and off the road, Hamilton goes by.
2) There's some indecision on the McLaren radio. They've had more than their fair share of run-ins with race stewards, they know the score - play conservative, let it all come right in the wash. They tell Hamilton to let Trulli by.
3) Overtaking under the safety car is a no-no, except in certain circumstances. One - you can un-lap yourself when the race director says so. Two - if a car pulls off with mechanical trouble you don't have to park up with him. Three - if a car spins off but stays running, he re-joins the queue where he safely can and no-one that went by is penalised (see Australia 2002 and Coulthard going off under the safety car for the precedent).
4) And, crucially, four - if someone lets you back by after they overtook you, you don't get penalised. Think about it. It would be absurd to punish you for having been illegaly overtaken and then been given back your position, even for the FIA!
5) Trulli went off the road, and Hamilton overtook him. This is fine and within the rules, no-one has ever disputed that (and if they did they need to read the rulebook again). Hamilton then let Trulli back past. This is also fine - they weren't sure of the legality of the situation and decided to play it safe.
6) What wasn't fine was what happened next. At some point between the end of the race and the meeting with the stewards, Hamilton and McLaren (I don't believe for one second that it was all Dave Ryan :rolleyes: ) lost their collective heads. They decided that despite what they'd said over the radio about letting Trulli by, they were instead going to say that Trulli overtook of his own accord. This would be in contravention of the rules, and thus get him nobbled and Hamilton promoted in the standings.

That was the problem. What happened on-track was completely within the rulebook. Had Trulli not been let by but overtaken anyway, the place belonged to Hamilton. Because he was let past, it belonged to Trulli. Hamilton and McLaren thought they could pull a fast one and grab the place that they basically handed to Trulli. They were caught, and have been punished.

End of story. Was that clear enough for you FrankJH or should I run through it one more time? Not that it matters, 'cause I'm bored of the talk about it and want to move onto something else. Mind, I would dearly love to hear Dave Ryan's full account of what went on. Maybe in a few years we might get it, I doubt he'll take it to his grave.
 
An excellent post JRS, a good explanation and I just don't get why people can't seem to understand what they did wrong was cheating.

I doubt Ryan will ever talk because he was likely paid off and signed a non disclosure agreement.

It would not surprise me one bit if he was contemplating retirement anyway.

I always thought the mclaren organisation was a pretty honest lot, even after the whole ferrari blueprint thing I Initially thought Dennis would not be involved in anything like that.

But hey the bad apples how now all been removed, honesty and integrity restored. The FIA are happy. I was reading the editors comments of pitpass on his forums he makes he feeling very clear, like myself it's pretty sad that they don't really care about honesty just about getting Ron out.

The best thing for hamilton is to find himself another team, it's not going to be long before whitmarsh drops himself in it.
 
the place belonged to Hamilton. Because he was let past, it belonged to Trulli.
.

well no as you can't over take. it wasn't his place to take back.
Agree with the silly people for lying and it's a serious offence with a reasonable punishment.
Has anyone got the actual rule?
 
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well no as you can't over take. it wasn't his place to take back.

What was he going to do? Park up until The Great And Glorious Messiah™, Our Lord And Saviour Lewis Hamilton started moving again?

He was allowed past. Therefore the place was his, unless the stewards decided that there was any reason at all to penalise him. McLaren told Hamilton to let him by, but decided after the race that they would try and get Trulli shunted back down the order. And they were punished. Yet somehow this has caused untold wailing and conjecture and arguing - how? It seems pretty clear cut to me (though I think it would be somewhat less of an issue had SpyGate not happened).

**** it, I'm really done with talking about this one now. The only reason I'm typing this post is because I'm quite drunk and have poor impulse control because of that fact :)
 
What was he going to do? Park up until The Great And Glorious Messiah™, Our Lord And Saviour Lewis Hamilton started moving again?

He was allowed past. Therefore the place was his, unless the stewards decided that there was any reason at all to penalise him. McLaren told Hamilton to let him by, but decided after the race that they would try and get Trulli shunted back down the order. And they were punished. Yet somehow this has caused untold wailing and conjecture and arguing - how? It seems pretty clear cut to me (though I think it would be somewhat less of an issue had SpyGate not happened).

**** it, I'm really done with talking about this one now. The only reason I'm typing this post is because I'm quite drunk and have poor impulse control because of that fact :)

Well seeing as I said I agreed with the punishment etc. :p
All I said is that you are not allowed to overtake under SC. Yes Hamilton slowed down, but he did not stop.
I then asked does anyone have the exact wording of the rule.
 
So basicly from next season T1 will always end up in a massive pileup at the start.

Only for the front grid runners who sit there waiting for the rest of the field to turn up.

It may actually be better to come last in qualifying and keep your tyres in the performance zone for T1!

Keeping tyre temps up is already an issue.. they're gonna need some new super compound that retains its heat..
 
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