Bahrain GP 2009 - Race 4/17

Duke · 6 May 2009 at 08:58

Donington has a bit more time. I really hope they get sorted

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=37792

dannyjo22 · 6 May 2009 at 09:40

JRS said:
I disagree. I watched Mansell overtake in places that by rights ought to be impossible across the years I watched him race, and if anyone could have gotten by Senna at Monaco then it would be him. Senna used every last bit of skill he had to keep Mansell back, and the result was a duel that will be remembered for a very long time.

I loved mansell as my sig shows but it was never going to happen and I don't believe it took much skill to keep him behind at Monaco. You only have to see benoldi keeping DC behind for how easy it is to keep a car 3 seconds faster than you behind at monaco.

If mansell had've attempted a decent opening it would have ended in an accident.

It looked good on Tv though.

sunama · 6 May 2009 at 09:50

JRS said:
I watched Mansell overtake in places that by rights ought to be impossible across the years I watched him race, and if anyone could have gotten by Senna at Monaco then it would be him. Senna used every last bit of skill he had to keep Mansell back, and the result was a duel that will be remembered for a very long time.

Too right. I highly doubt Senna was resorted to brake-testing just for the fun of it. He must've felt that it was necessary in order to keep Mansell behind.

Remember, Mansell was totally fired up, in the fastest car on the grid, on new tyres. He was probably about 3s/lap faster than Senna at that point in the race.

NathanE · 6 May 2009 at 09:56

dannyjo22 said:
Yes it does. Your describing taking a corner more slowly to baulk a driver. Thats fine, but using the brake is brake testing and thats illegal in a corner in formula 1.

F1 drivers haven't need to use the brakes to do a brake test for several decades though. The cars have been so powerful that all it takes to "brake test" someone is a quick and slight lift of the throttle. It has exactly the same effect as what touching the brakes does in another category of racing.

sunama · 6 May 2009 at 10:39

Nathan, within reason that is true. But, by lifting (without braking), coming out of a corner, you leave yourself wide open to an overtaking manouvre, without damaging the car behind's nose.

When you brake, coming out of a corner, if the car behind is very close behind, it is more likely to damage his nose cone.

You could simply lift off the throttle, but you could end up allowing the car behind to close right up behind you or actually assist him in overtaking you. If you brake however, the car behind has a very high chance of damaging his nose, thus reducing his speed or worse still -forcing him to pit to replace his nose.

I wouldn't lift off after the apex of the corner, as I would most likely get overtaken. I would however, brake after the apex, knowing that the car behind will have a lesser chance of passing me, with his nose cone intact.

JRS · 6 May 2009 at 11:59

dannyjo22 said:
I loved mansell as my sig shows but it was never going to happen and I don't believe it took much skill to keep him behind at Monaco.

Driving off the racing line the way he did, onto all that rubbish at the side of the road, with worn tyres, and managing to keep it out of the barrier? With one of the sport's most daring and accomplished overtakers nipping at his heels? Sounds pretty skillfull to me!

Remember Mansell making that move on Prost going into the Swimming Pool chicane in '91? He came from so far back that Prost was made to look completely silly. And this with a gearbox that had misbehaved at every previous race in the year and was still very much an unknown quantity when downshifting into a corner quickly. He knew how to overtake at tracks where other drivers moan about it being impossible (12th to win at Hungary in '89 anyone?). He knew how to overtake Senna. And Senna's skill in holding him off is something that I'm glad I got to watch, even if it was only on TV.

Goksly · 6 May 2009 at 12:38

sunama said:
The idea of brake testing:
2. If the guy behind you decides to risk it, he will gently nudge his nose into your diffuser. Generally, the rear of an F1 car is a lot stronger than the nose cone, hence, he loses his nose cone and goes into the pits, while you continue on your merry way. Post-race, there will be a lot of noises, but you can deal with the aftermath.

lol - what? You say that as if you are writing a story. I present you with my version:
Person brake tests in corner.
Guy following crashes into the back of the car at a decent speed.
Leaders defuser / part of rear wing is broken. Game over.
Person in second place race is either over or he goes to pits for nose cone.

Gentle nudge? If he was that in control I'm sure he would either stop before for move to the side.

dannyjo22 · 6 May 2009 at 13:01

sunama said:
I wouldn't lift off after the apex of the corner, as I would most likely get overtaken. I would however, brake after the apex, knowing that the car behind will have a lesser chance of passing me, with his nose cone intact.

What a load of old pony, this is F1 not touring car. You do write that like you actually have experience racing in f1. Your totally ignoring the fact it would get you banned. Especially if the car infront runs into the back of you.

How about when the car behind pulls a legit move alongside, turn the steering wheel and hope to damage his car or wishbones? That way he thinks twice before trying a pass again?

lopkinfop · 6 May 2009 at 14:00

dannyjo22 said:
What a load of old pony, this is F1 not touring car. You do write that like you actually have experience racing in f1. Your totally ignoring the fact it would get you banned. Especially if the car infront runs into the back of you.

How about when the car behind pulls a legit move alongside, turn the steering wheel and hope to damage his car or wishbones? That way he thinks twice before trying a pass again?

i.e. Shumacher Vs Villeneuve and we all know how that ended up

deuse · 6 May 2009 at 14:54

The son of Formula One boss Max Mosley has been found dead
they are not looking for anyone else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8036232.stm

dannyjo22 · 6 May 2009 at 15:14

Oh dear poor bloke, can't be easy having mosley as your father.

NightSt@lk3r · 6 May 2009 at 15:22

deffo suicide.

Pete19s · 6 May 2009 at 15:33

dannyjo22 said:
Oh dear poor bloke, can't be easy having mosley as your father.

I know that most of us cant stand the way Mosley is seemingly destroying F1 but having one of your own children die is not somthing even Max deserves. One of the few occasions I have any sympathy for the man.

gord · 6 May 2009 at 15:34

deuse said:
The son of Formula One boss Max Mosley has been found dead
they are not looking for anyone else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8036232.stm

Skeeter · 6 May 2009 at 19:47

Kept this one quiet:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5288324,00.html

Winner takes all rule put into 2010 regulations, but no anouncement or discussion.... sneaky sneaky FIA.

Expect FOTA to go mental.

sunama · 7 May 2009 at 00:09

dannyjo22 said:
Your totally ignoring the fact it would get you banned. Especially if the car infront runs into the back of you.

That is a risk you take. It depends just how badly you want to keep that position.

dannyjo22 said:
How about when the car behind pulls a legit move alongside, turn the steering wheel and hope to damage his car or wishbones? That way he thinks twice before trying a pass again?

You could use that tactic, however, you will probably damage your car. Brake testing is better as it favours the car in front (the rear of the car in front is stronger than the nose of the car behind).

Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton - they've all done questionable things during their careers, in order to win or secure more points. When you want to win so badly and believe in your own ability so much, you begin to justify that what you are doing is actually the right thing.

orderoftheflame · 7 May 2009 at 07:34

sunama said:
That is a risk you take. It depends just how badly you want to keep that position.

You could use that tactic, however, you will probably damage your car. Brake testing is better as it favours the car in front (the rear of the car in front is stronger than the nose of the car behind).

I don't think any driver would be stupid enough to sacrifice the rest of the race by risking the back end of their car.

The rear end may be tougher than the front, but could still take enough damage to effect lap times.

Why would you risk loosing several places to keep one?

sunama · 7 May 2009 at 11:38

orderoftheflame said:
I don't think any driver would be stupid enough to sacrifice the rest of the race by risking the back end of their car.

Senna did. I'm sure other top class drivers have in the past.

orderoftheflame said:
The rear end may be tougher than the front, but could still take enough damage to effect lap times.

It could. But at least the guy who is on your tail will be gone.

orderoftheflame said:
Why would you risk loosing several places to keep one?

That my friend is what separates people who dont want to win at all costs from somebody who wants to win no matter what. In the current F1 field, I think only Hamilton (and possibly Alonso) would meet that criteria. In the past M.Schumacher and Senna would want to win, no matter what.

dannyjo22 · 7 May 2009 at 11:54

sunama said:
That my friend is what separates people who dont want to win at all costs from somebody who wants to win no matter what. In the current F1 field, I think only Hamilton (and possibly Alonso) would meet that criteria. In the past M.Schumacher and Senna would want to win, no matter what.

So now we are praising cheaters and people that will use the car as a weapon. Great. I'd rather cheats get punished. Many sportmen and women the world over can demonstrate a huge will to win that doesn't involve cheating.

Personally I blame the FIA for not having the balls to crush senna, prost and the like in the first place. Senna in particular should have sat the season out for admitting to taking out another driver.

Winning no matter what is not a trait I find in the least admirable.

orderoftheflame · 7 May 2009 at 12:03

sunama said:
That my friend is what separates people who dont want to win at all costs from somebody who wants to win no matter what. In the current F1 field, I think only Hamilton (and possibly Alonso) would meet that criteria. In the past M.Schumacher and Senna would want to win, no matter what.

I was going to reply, but Danny summed it up pretty nicely for me.

I'd much rather have close, clean racing, than see a load of wings go flying tbh.