At the start of the year, they did say that they would run without KERS, however, as the season progresses, if other teams catch up and surpass the BrawnGP cars, they may be forced to introduce it, if only to prevent their championship lead from being eroded.
Bahrain GP 2009 - Race 4/17
- Thread starter stockhausen
- Start date
At the start of the year, they did say that they would run without KERS, however, as the season progresses, if other teams catch up and surpass the BrawnGP cars, they may be forced to introduce it, if only to prevent their championship lead from being eroded.
Soldato
If the other teams are anything to go buy it will only take away Brawn's current advantage in that it is supremely well balanced and good on the brakes. I don't think they would sacrifice that for some extra speed on the straights.
They haven't got the cash to force it to work like Ferrari and Mclaren.
They haven't got the cash to force it to work like Ferrari and Mclaren.
Associate
If its mounted to the engine, and they would probably end up with the same unit as McLaren, then all they would need to do is find room in the car to store the batteries and control unit, preferably somewhere that doesn't burn jensons bum.
Soldato
Easier said than done though! Look at the amount of trouble other teams are having despite huge budgets and KERS being part of the plan for ages.
Well Senna is a **** for doing it. It was rumoured Ralf lifted or touched the brakes in oz with his huge accident with villeneuve. Its a tactic that should never be used in modern GP racing. Someone could easily get hurt and if that happened the driver might find himself having a season off banned.
No one should condone that sort of tactic.
Its not a skill at all, any monkey can do it.
Wrong. Not everbody can do it. It is a skill, requiring the driver in front to assess the situation and the best places to do it, so that the driver behind doesnt cause too much damage, should he ram the car in front.
The best places to do it would be the last corner before a straight (depending on if you are vulnerable to being overtaken on that straight). You also have to decide whether or not the driver behind, in his current state, is capable of realising that a brake-test is happening and that he should also hit his brakes.
Some drivers are so bad that if the driver in front accelerates after the apex of a corner and then carresses his brakes (ie. brake tests), the driver behind will just end up ramming the car in front off the road. Its risky and you have to judge the skill level of the driver behind.
If every "monkey" decided to do this, then there would be chaos. If Hamilton did it to Alonso (or vice-versa), however, I'm pretty sure there wouldnt be an accident as both drivers are sharp enough to realise whats going on and how to deal with it.
If Hamilton did it to Piquet, then there would be a very high chance of an accident.
Thats not a skill, you have just described how easy it is to brake test someone. The driver following should not have to anticipate a driver infront braking for little reason anymore than driving into another driver is an acceptable means to stop someone trying to pass.
How is it a skill if the driver behind runs into the back of you causing you yourself to get a 2 race ban or more. THe FIA would just demand your traces and you would end up on a holiday.
The day brake testing becomes a legit skill in F1 is the day I go watch something else. Its no more skillfull than ramming each other off the road ala senna prost and schumacher.
How is it a skill if the driver behind runs into the back of you causing you yourself to get a 2 race ban or more. THe FIA would just demand your traces and you would end up on a holiday.
The day brake testing becomes a legit skill in F1 is the day I go watch something else. Its no more skillfull than ramming each other off the road ala senna prost and schumacher.
Soldato
I'm with Danny on this. Braking when there is no need with someone right behind you isn't clever.
Soldato
Brake testing doesn't always involve using the brake pedal...
It's always been legit in F1 as long as it doesn't cause a crash/incident.
When you're that close up the arse of the guy in front you should pretty much expect it as a racer. The guy in front will use all the tricks he knows to shake you off. If that means taking the next corner in a slightly abnormal way (i.e. slower than usual by keeping off the throttle more) to confuse you then he will do that.
It's always been legit in F1 as long as it doesn't cause a crash/incident.
When you're that close up the arse of the guy in front you should pretty much expect it as a racer. The guy in front will use all the tricks he knows to shake you off. If that means taking the next corner in a slightly abnormal way (i.e. slower than usual by keeping off the throttle more) to confuse you then he will do that.
Soldato
That I'm fine with, nothing wrong with driving slower to stop the other driver getting a decent run at you. Deliberately hitting the brakes with a car behind you is something I don't think should be encouraged, I certainly wouldn't class it as skillfull driving (unlike driving slowly and holding up a car cleanly)
Yes it does. Your describing taking a corner more slowly to baulk a driver. Thats fine, but using the brake is brake testing and thats illegal in a corner in formula 1.
Well, just like the Brits in this country like underdogs, they tend to prefer winning cleanly. Myself and many other sportsmen around the world, just like to get the job done, rather than end up losing (eg. M.Schumacher - Australia 1994).
If you and I are both going for the title, in the final race of the season. You are behind me, but are much faster, I will definitely brake test you. You will either have to be very brave to follow me close enough to make the overtake or you will have to back off significantly to prevent yourself from having the chance to overtake and just wait for me to make a mistake which allow you to overtake me without risk. Either way, overtaking me will be made extremely difficult.
Oh and brake testing IS NOT EASY. Along with all the legal manouvres drivers can use entering a corner and taking the apex of the corner slower than normal, adding a brake test in key corners adds a level of difficulty that most drivers can't pull off safely. This is why I hold the skill of both Mansell and Senna in Monaco 1992, in such high regard.
Also bear in mind that when you brake test you arent supposed to do it in every corner, lap after lap. You choose key corners and all you are doing is putting doubt into the mind of the driver behind, to prevent him from getting confident and following you very closely through a series of corners. All you are doing is creating some doubt. Thats all.
If you and I are both going for the title, in the final race of the season. You are behind me, but are much faster, I will definitely brake test you. You will either have to be very brave to follow me close enough to make the overtake or you will have to back off significantly to prevent yourself from having the chance to overtake and just wait for me to make a mistake which allow you to overtake me without risk. Either way, overtaking me will be made extremely difficult.
Oh and brake testing IS NOT EASY. Along with all the legal manouvres drivers can use entering a corner and taking the apex of the corner slower than normal, adding a brake test in key corners adds a level of difficulty that most drivers can't pull off safely. This is why I hold the skill of both Mansell and Senna in Monaco 1992, in such high regard.
Also bear in mind that when you brake test you arent supposed to do it in every corner, lap after lap. You choose key corners and all you are doing is putting doubt into the mind of the driver behind, to prevent him from getting confident and following you very closely through a series of corners. All you are doing is creating some doubt. Thats all.
Soldato
I don't understand why braking and possibly have someone trash your defuser is a good idea... unless your a million points in front of the pack (championship wise) with just one other guy close to you - the guy who is going to lose his nose cone.
If thats a good idea you might as well just let him past and then go up the inside of the next corner and get the door shut on your face. Same result; both to the pits or out.
Also, iirc, if there is evidence of brake testing and there is an accident they will b1tch slap you with a back of the grid / 10 place penalty, so again, seems quite stupid unless its do or die at the end of the season?
If thats a good idea you might as well just let him past and then go up the inside of the next corner and get the door shut on your face. Same result; both to the pits or out.
Also, iirc, if there is evidence of brake testing and there is an accident they will b1tch slap you with a back of the grid / 10 place penalty, so again, seems quite stupid unless its do or die at the end of the season?
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The idea of brake testing:
1. you make it more difficult for the guy behind you, in a faster car, to get past you. See my earlier posts for a more detailed explanation.
2. If the guy behind you decides to risk it, he will gently nudge his nose into your diffuser. Generally, the rear of an F1 car is a lot stronger than the nose cone, hence, he loses his nose cone and goes into the pits, while you continue on your merry way. Post-race, there will be a lot of noises, but you can deal with the aftermath.
3. Keep in mind that you shouldnt make brake-testing a habit. You use this technique in addition to all the other legal means of defending your position.
Its similar to how when footballers dive for a penalty or free-kick: it can backfire on you, but its a risk you take. You dont base your entire game plan on diving, but it is a good tool to have, if you are desperate.
Barrichello was out of order during that race, where he was behaving as if Piquet should move out of his way. Granted, Barrichello was in a Brawn - the fastest car in the field - but he has no right to demand that people get out of his way. Alonso or Hamilton might be able to do this, as their reputation preceeds them, but Barrichello - I dont think so. On seeing his demands, I would've brake-tested him for 2-3 corners in the proceeding laps, just to frustrate him a little more. He would've got by me eventually though.
1. you make it more difficult for the guy behind you, in a faster car, to get past you. See my earlier posts for a more detailed explanation.
2. If the guy behind you decides to risk it, he will gently nudge his nose into your diffuser. Generally, the rear of an F1 car is a lot stronger than the nose cone, hence, he loses his nose cone and goes into the pits, while you continue on your merry way. Post-race, there will be a lot of noises, but you can deal with the aftermath.
3. Keep in mind that you shouldnt make brake-testing a habit. You use this technique in addition to all the other legal means of defending your position.
Its similar to how when footballers dive for a penalty or free-kick: it can backfire on you, but its a risk you take. You dont base your entire game plan on diving, but it is a good tool to have, if you are desperate.
Barrichello was out of order during that race, where he was behaving as if Piquet should move out of his way. Granted, Barrichello was in a Brawn - the fastest car in the field - but he has no right to demand that people get out of his way. Alonso or Hamilton might be able to do this, as their reputation preceeds them, but Barrichello - I dont think so. On seeing his demands, I would've brake-tested him for 2-3 corners in the proceeding laps, just to frustrate him a little more. He would've got by me eventually though.
Soldato
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i thought you werent alowed to break test in f1 anymore and you arent alowed to swerve more than once across a track on a straight either.
back in the day senna would swerve atleast twice on straights blocking people
made for more exciting racing and didnt seem so follow the leader until you get the racing lineyou realise what you just said right? no breaking in corners! sounds dangerous
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Soldato
F1 must have passed you by then when you was young
everyone who loved F1 remembers Senna and Mansell 1992 monaco GP
Senna brake tested slowed in corners for the last 3 laps
and did they crash? NO.
Today there are way to many rules and the drivers are a bit girly
compared to Senna/Mansell/Prost
Obviously not because hamilton has already run into the back of Alonso once, prompting calls of brake testing which Renault proved he didn't.
Thats because they were slow speed corners, plus the cornering speeds have been much higher in recent history. Corners that never used to be flat are now flat with no lift or braking required. You were a lot more likely to be thinking of the brake 15 years ago they you are today.
At Monaco a driver would be expecting to brake. I was never that impressed with monaco in 92 Mansell hammed it up to ****. There was never anyway he was going to get passed and it doesn't take brake testing or great skill to keep him behind.
These sort of tactics are banned anyway so it's a totally mute argument.
Soldato
I disagree. I watched Mansell overtake in places that by rights ought to be impossible across the years I watched him race, and if anyone could have gotten by Senna at Monaco then it would be him. Senna used every last bit of skill he had to keep Mansell back, and the result was a duel that will be remembered for a very long time.