Bahrain Grand Prix 2012, Sakhir - Race 4/20

FrankJH · 28 Apr 2012 at 18:47

drunkenmaster said:
Are you sure about that? the general consensus(one I absolutely don't agree with btw) is that Hamilton didn't "save" his tyres and never has, and that Button is the "master" of it. Yet Hamilton still beat him most of the time, this year he's actually come out and said he's going slower to finish more races or, save his tyres, and boom 3 3rd places in a row and beating Button in most races quite easily, and but for his **** pit crew would be leading the championship now and beating Button quite easily.
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Yes its a skill he (LH) doesnt have

No he doesnt beat JB "most of the time"

Jenson won in Aus, and got a 2nd in China (clearly beating Hamilton by a significant margin in BOTH races)

Without a mistake while LEADING (that JB openly admitted to) in Malaysia he would have been 1st or 2nd in that race also, and they were about equal in Bahrain until JB had to retire due to car issues

Lewis is just VERY lucky he hasnt had any techncal retirements so far, even with his botched pitstops in Bahrain he collected a decent amount of points

Do you want me to continue with last season...........

You do post a lot of bs "most of the time " lol

utajoker said:
i think button pitted earlier than hamilton every time at bahrain and in the couple of races previous.
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you are correct about Bahrain, but I dont believe you about the other races (although it can be misleading with not seeing every pitstop in BBC's highlights)

It appeared from what I saw that certainly in a couple LH was in first (and Im pretty certain it was true for Aus and China for most of the stops)

dannyjo22 · 28 Apr 2012 at 19:17

Skeeter said:
Lol.

Or should I say, "Lol".

Funnily enough he didn't post in the thread when Button won.

therealnerd2 · 28 Apr 2012 at 19:29

Hopefully we can all agree that the media's labelling of drivers as "rainmasters" just means that have rubbish cars and can't win anything in the dry.

jonneymendoza · 28 Apr 2012 at 20:09

Kenai said:
It's almost as if it's completely stupid to try and draw such massively sweeping conclusions off the back of just 2 races!!

lol innit

Duke · 28 Apr 2012 at 20:41

Bahrain race edit is up - http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits/

"Kimi is faster than you"

CaptainRAVE · 28 Apr 2012 at 21:03

Duke said:
Bahrain race edit is up - http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits/

"Kimi is faster than you"

Thanks for posting, needed to catch up on a few of these

sunama · 28 Apr 2012 at 22:16

Have a read of this (A. Benson's blog).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2012/04/four_different_winners_-_now_p.html

There is also some discussion about tyres, so I know that some of you tyre junkies might enjoy it.

Jono8 · 28 Apr 2012 at 22:55

To be fair DM's bit about being able to put in a super fast lap is sort of true. Hamilton has won 4 out of 4 in qualification this season against Button. I believe it was 13 against 6 in Hamilton's favour last season as well.

So, in terms of actually being able to drive the absolute fastest, Hamilton is faster.

Not that it does him much good in the race though

FrankJH · 29 Apr 2012 at 07:06

sunama said:
Have a read of this (A. Benson's blog).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2012/04/four_different_winners_-_now_p.html

There is also some discussion about tyres, so I know that some of you tyre junkies might enjoy it.

I read that article earlier in the week, quite a good read - although as confused as anyone as to who has the better car lol

Jono8 said:
To be fair DM's bit about being able to put in a super fast lap is sort of true. Hamilton has won 4 out of 4 in qualification this season against Button. I believe it was 13 against 6 in Hamilton's favour last season as well.

So, in terms of actually being able to drive the absolute fastest, Hamilton is faster.

Not that it does him much good in the race though

And JB's been 2nd twice to LH's pole's but lets not get bogged down with fairness or anything

If I was writing posts like dm or you, I could correctly state "while LH is getting worse in races, JB is getting better in qualifying"

Jono8 · 29 Apr 2012 at 08:40

FrankJH said:
I read that article earlier in the week, quite a good read - although as confused as anyone as to who has the better car lol

And JB's been 2nd twice to LH's pole's but lets not get bogged down with fairness or anything

If I was writing posts like dm or you, I could correctly state "while LH is getting worse in races, JB is getting better in qualifying"

??

You cant argue with the fact that over one lap when they are trying to get the absolute fastest out of the car, Lewis is better.

In the races, i agree, Button has shown he is a match for Lewis, if not better, but in qualifying, Hamilton is better.

They have been team mates for 42 races and in that time,in qualifying, the head to head is 31 vs 11 in Hamilton's favour.

Jono8 · 29 Apr 2012 at 08:50

In fact looking at the facts race wise as well, in the 42 races that they have been together, the head to head for races is 23 vs 19 in Hamilton's favour.

Points wise though, Button has the edge as he has 527 points compared to Lewis's 516.

CaptainRAVE · 29 Apr 2012 at 09:06

Lewis seems to be taking a much more level headed approach this year though. Of Button and Hamilton, my money would be on Hamilton to finish ahead in the championship this year.

Skeeter · 29 Apr 2012 at 13:01

Jono8 said:
In fact looking at the facts race wise as well, in the 42 races that they have been together, the head to head for races is 23 vs 19 in Hamilton's favour.

Points wise though, Button has the edge as he has 527 points compared to Lewis's 516.

Yeah, the Button vs Hamilton thread a while back concluded that when Hamilton finishes, he finishes better than Button, but Button actually finishes more races.

The overwhelming conclusions however was that they are a lot closer than people might think, and by far the closest pairing of any of the top teams.

mmj_uk · 29 Apr 2012 at 13:08

FrankJH said:
Yes its a skill he (LH) doesnt have

Ridiculous thing to say, LH has just had a hard time getting his head around having to drive slower to be faster which is what F1 has become.

Hamilton is a driver that wants to be on the limit all of the time, he is a true racer but it's reached the point where when he does what comes naturally to him the Pirelli tyres bite him in the ass.

Even Rosberg admitted that when he cruised to victory he was never pushing, which is what LH has been guilty of since the introduction of comedy Pirelli's. There's nothing smooth about Jenson's style he just cottoned onto what F1 is now about faster, ie. pacing oneself.

FrankJH · 29 Apr 2012 at 17:06

Jono8 said:
??

You cant argue with the fact that over one lap when they are trying to get the absolute fastest out of the car, Lewis is better.

In the races, i agree, Button has shown he is a match for Lewis, if not better, but in qualifying, Hamilton is better.

They have been team mates for 42 races and in that time,in qualifying, the head to head is 31 vs 11 in Hamilton's favour.

Remeber those stats are always going to be biased in Lewis's favour as JB effectively came into LH's team, with the whole of McLaren focused around him.(and dont forget the McLaren was designed for LH in JB's first season based on how late JB was confirmed at the team)

No one scores any points on Saturday's , of course its always a massive help to qualify first - but its not THAT much of a problem qualifying lower down.

Your stats also dont quantify how close JB was when LH was ahead of him (or vice versa) , ok so LH has two poles this season , but dont tell me it makes a jot of difference to JB's race that he started 2nd , its effectively the same but stats dont reflect this.

Jono8 said:
In fact looking at the facts race wise as well, in the 42 races that they have been together, the head to head for races is 23 vs 19 in Hamilton's favour.

Points wise though, Button has the edge as he has 527 points compared to Lewis's 516.

This is only a meaningful stat if you include mechanical retirements also (not retirements through the drivers own fault), as JB would have more of these hands down (especiially since the beginning of last season)

Lewis seems to get problems with his car, but its rarely a fatal one - unlike JB

mmj_uk said:
Ridiculous thing to say, LH has just had a hard time getting his head around having to drive slower to be faster which is what F1 has become.

Hamilton is a driver that wants to be on the limit all of the time, he is a true racer but it's reached the point where when he does what comes naturally to him the Pirelli tyres bite him in the ass.

Even Rosberg admitted that when he cruised to victory he was never pushing, which is what LH has been guilty of since the introduction of comedy Pirelli's. There's nothing smooth about Jenson's style he just cottoned onto what F1 is now about faster, ie. pacing oneself.

Why is any of that JB's problem?

At the end of the dsy 9 times out of ten (when either of them dont have technical issues) JB has a better race pace than Hamilton from lights to flag eve if LH has individual faster laps

Jono8 · 29 Apr 2012 at 18:42

FrankJH said:
Remeber those stats are always going to be biased in Lewis's favour as JB effectively came into LH's team, with the whole of McLaren focused around him.(and dont forget the McLaren was designed for LH in JB's first season based on how late JB was confirmed at the team)

Um....So you are denying that Lewis is better at Jenson at putting in the absolute fastest time that can be got out of a car in qualifying? Who cares how close Button is, Lewis is better, as has been proven by actual facts.

In the race, with the current rules, and in the current car, I think Jenson has the edge on lewis on race day.

Jono8 · 29 Apr 2012 at 18:44

FrankJH said:
At the end of the dsy 9 times out of ten (when either of them dont have technical issues) JB has a better race pace than Hamilton from lights to flag eve if LH has individual faster laps

But that was DM's point (although i think he put it across badly

)? That Lewis would be better if they didnt have to worry about tyre wear and could drive their absolute fastest every lap.

No one can deny that at the moment, Button has shown he is better on race day as he is able to put in consitantly fast laps without killing the tyres.

FrankJH · 29 Apr 2012 at 19:09

Jono8 said:
Um....So you are denying that Lewis is better at Jenson at putting in the absolute fastest time that can be got out of a car in qualifying? Who cares how close Button is, Lewis is better, as has been proven by actual facts.

In the race, with the current rules, and in the current car, I think Jenson has the edge on lewis on race day.

Im just saying be fair - stats arent everything (if they ever mean anything to start with)

It doesnt matter in general who is better on Saturday, this isnt where points are gained or lost.

Jono8 said:
But that was DM's point (although i think he put it across badly )? That Lewis would be better if they didnt have to worry about tyre wear and could drive their absolute fastest every lap.

No one can deny that at the moment, Button has shown he is better on race day as he is able to put in consitantly fast laps without killing the tyres.

Actually it wasnt - dm tried to suggest LH beats JB out right in the race "most of the time" as I pointed out at the top of this page - this is just not even close to being true (even this season its not even close to being true , even after JB had a technical retirement and non-scoring finish)

CaptainRAVE · 29 Apr 2012 at 19:11

FrankJH said:
Im just saying be fair - stats arent everything (if they ever mean anything to start with)

It doesnt matter in general who is better on Saturday, this isnt where points are gained or lost.

Really? The pole sitters have been doing pretty well the past couple of races.

FrankJH · 29 Apr 2012 at 19:13

CaptainRAVE said:
Really? The pole sitters have been doing pretty well the past couple of races.

And the two before that the pole got 3rd place (but I guess you conveniently forgot those two results lol)

In general isnt a 3rd place much less likely than a win from pole?

edit and thank you for proving my point - indirectly

JB won in aus from 2nd place, even though he wss beaten by his team mate in quali, which proves that as long as you are close to your team mate in quali, Saturday as such doesnt mean very much.

Obviously if the car is massively out of place then it matters, but even being a row behind isnt too bad as long as tactics for the race allow the driver to challange