Bahrain Grand Prix 2012, Sakhir - Race 4/20

arknor · 25 Apr 2012 at 16:51

Mr Men said:
If cars are limited by the tyres then they would all lap at the same pace, funny that they don't.

but they do gues u ignored the screenshot of live standings i posted during the race

nearly everyone on the grid lapping 1:38.3 hmmm , the cars never get anywhere near the qualifying times either

its almost like the whole field is trying to maintain a 2second gap to the car infrotn because they want to save tyres

Skeeter · 25 Apr 2012 at 17:02

Mr Men said:
If cars are limited by the tyres then they would all lap at the same pace, funny that they don't.

I think you have missunderstood me. The pit stop strategy is defined by the condition of the tyres, meaning when you pit is defined by how long you can make your tyres last. I didn't mean that the pace of the cars is defined by the tyres.

Mr Men · 25 Apr 2012 at 17:18

arknor said:
but they do gues u ignored the screenshot of live standings i posted during the race

nearly everyone on the grid lapping 1:38.3 hmmm , the cars never get anywhere near the qualifying times either

its almost like the whole field is trying to maintain a 2second gap to the car infrotn because they want to save tyres

Maybe cause they were all stuck behind a car going that pace? And maybe cause the midfield is very competitive due to all the rules making everything pretty static?

And they run quali with fumes, why would they get close to it in the race running fuel fuel?

Mr Men · 25 Apr 2012 at 17:21

Skeeter said:
I think you have missunderstood me. The pit stop strategy is defined by the condition of the tyres, meaning when you pit is defined by how long you can make your tyres last. I didn't mean that the pace of the cars is defined by the tyres.

Ah right yeah I get that

They don't need re-fuelling back, F1 just seems to go back and forward on pit stops etc, I think the tyres should be a bit more durable with a lot less drop off, if the tyres lasted 15 or so laps at full speed then had a gradual decline then they would be pretty good.

Jono8 · 25 Apr 2012 at 17:55

Also, Kobayashi got the second fastest lap in Bahrain and John Eric Vergne got the 3rd fastest....

Kobayashi's fastest lap was 1 second quicker than Hamiltons.

arknor · 25 Apr 2012 at 18:27

Mr Men said:
Maybe cause they were all stuck behind a car going that pace? And maybe cause the midfield is very competitive due to all the rules making everything pretty static?

And they run quali with fumes, why would they get close to it in the race running fuel fuel?

theres a 5 second gap between some of them.... its pretty obvious its not one huge train

Also, Kobayashi got the second fastest lap in Bahrain and John Eric Vergne got the 3rd fastest....

Kobayashi's fastest lap was 1 second quicker than Hamiltons.

yup and di you see what happened to vergnes tyres on the final lap when he set his fastest lap and kept on pushing as hard as he could?

sets his fastest lap directly after an outlap and then just keeps losing more and more time until at the end of the race his tyres are 5 seconds slower after only 15 laps.

so a degradation of 0.333 per lap if you decide to push , with that much of a loss if it even worth giving it your all in qualifying?

Tenzo · 25 Apr 2012 at 19:16

Skeeter said:
That will make no difference (and has already happened. "Zee Cleeeif!" of early 2011 has gone). As long as the limit for pit stops and therefore new tyres is dependant on the life of the tyre, tyre management will always be a high priority.

The only way to remove any reliance on tyre life is to put in something else that means the driver gets a chance to change tyres well before they are near the end of their life. I.e. refuelling.

I think people are getting a bit confused on what F1 is about though. It has never been a flat out sprint. Tyre management and/or fuel management have been a part of the races for decades. F1 races are between 90 minutes and 2 hours, which is almost double the 1 hour races used in many 'endurance' series.

I do agree the tyre rules are not perfect. But I don't think the simplistic ideals of 'just make them last longer' will solve the issue, and I definitely don't think this season is being 'ruined by stupid tyres'.

I don't think the season is being ruined, it's actually very exciting. Tyres should degrade, my issue at the moment is that they are the critical success factor for all races - when perhaps they shouldn't be.

I just think they need to be adjusted, so drivers can push more and for longer, rather than "plodding" about at 75%.

deuse · 25 Apr 2012 at 20:21

Glaucus said:
It's not comparable, f1 has never been 100% driver.

And it's never been 95% tires either.

Glaucus · 25 Apr 2012 at 20:44

It's not 95% tyres far from it.

arknor · 25 Apr 2012 at 21:29

Glaucus said:
It's not 95% tyres far from it.

tyres seem to matter more than the car thats for sure

Glaucus · 25 Apr 2012 at 21:31

No they don't.
Or are midfield or even back markers suddenly getting podiums. They are all on the same tyres so all have new tyres and ware them out.

Mr Men · 25 Apr 2012 at 22:26

arknor said:
tyres seem to matter more than the car thats for sure

Not anymore than usual, tyres have always been a crucial part of getting a winning car, see Damon Hill in an Arrows at Hungary 97 how having better tyres can promote you up the grid.

In 1998 Schumacher demanded better from goodyear, to widen the front tyre, they done it he came fighting back. Look at Ferrari in 2005, hobbled on Bridgestone endurance tyres.

It's not a new situation, far from it.

Indy500 · 25 Apr 2012 at 23:10

Mr Men said:
Not anymore than usual, tyres have always been a crucial part of getting a winning car, see Damon Hill in an Arrows at Hungary 97 how having better tyres can promote you up the grid.

That car barely qualified at Melbourne though, it had a lot of development work done on it to get that far. He also missed out on a podium at Nurburgring due to an error in the pits. You still needed a half-decent car and a good driver: Hill, Panis and to a lesser extent Barrichello were the only Bridgestone-equipped drivers in mid-field teams that elevated them to the front on a semi-consistent basis in 1997. Poor reliability also prevented two (Arrows and Stewart) of the three Bridgestone teams making the most of the tyre situation.

Sparky · 25 Apr 2012 at 23:27

Glaucus said:
No they don't.
Or are midfield or even back markers suddenly getting podiums. They are all on the same tyres so all have new tyres and ware them out.

oi check your trust messages!

Mr Men · 26 Apr 2012 at 00:05

sr4470 said:
That car barely qualified at Melbourne though, it had a lot of development work done on it to get that far. He also missed out on a podium at Nurburgring due to an error in the pits. You still needed a half-decent car and a good driver: Hill, Panis and to a lesser extent Barrichello were the only Bridgestone-equipped drivers in mid-field teams that elevated them to the front on a semi-consistent basis in 1997. Poor reliability also prevented two (Arrows and Stewart) of the three Bridgestone teams making the most of the tyre situation.

They greatly gained when Bridgestone's worked though, which is my point, the tyres could make all the difference. The tyres in F1 have always been a crucial element of any car.

When McLaren switched to Michelin they had a terrible time getting them to work for example. With their being 1 tyre for all now it's a lot less on an issue IMO.

Skeeter · 26 Apr 2012 at 10:12

How about the FIA mandate how many pitstops must be done and when they must be done, keeping each 'stint' well within the limit of a tyres durability? Much like they do with GP2 or a lot of Endurance racing series?

(I think this would be a terrible idea tbh, but it would allow drivers to push in every stint and not worry about tyre wear affecting their strategy while also allowing the FIA to keep the ban on refuelling).

SpeedFreak · 26 Apr 2012 at 12:13

How about one compound and one tyre stop per race unless wet if we're going to simplify it? Get a compound to each race that can go 75% of race distance and leave it there with tyre strategy.

Skeeter · 26 Apr 2012 at 12:25

SpeedFreak said:
How about one compound and one tyre stop per race unless wet if we're going to simplify it? Get a compound to each race that can go 75% of race distance and leave it there with tyre strategy.

Thats pretty much what we had in 2010. No refuelling and tyres that would go for most of the race meaning only 1 stop.

It didn't work. People didn't want to push to hard and damage the tyres because they would have another 40 laps to do on them, and you could not make up enough time by going for it to cover an additional stop.

Glaucus · 26 Apr 2012 at 13:13

Sparky-F1 said:
oi check your trust messages!

Boo, it seems my phone can no longer download my emails from that address says password or pop settings are wrong. Passwords correct and settings haven't change. Unless something's changed server side. Will have to look into it.

Indy500 · 26 Apr 2012 at 13:16

Skeeter said:
Thats pretty much what we had in 2010. No refuelling and tyres that would go for most of the race meaning only 1 stop.

It didn't work. People didn't want to push to hard and damage the tyres because they would have another 40 laps to do on them, and you could not make up enough time by going for it to cover an additional stop.

The 2010 championship was a lot closer than last season though. Not to mention Kobayashi's banzai passing without DRS.