Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[asim18]

He knows better than you what is right and wrong.

If he knew better that homosexuality was wrong then why did he make it a potentiality of human life?

He allowed animals to posses homosexual tendencies for thousands of years before deciding to beam down a book telling a select bunch of homo sapiens that being gay will make you burn in hell, then causally, God is either the epitome of Evil, or God doesn't really know anything.

Further to that I feel sorry for any animals that have gay romps. I guess there'll be plenty of food in hell. God wouldn't want his buddy Satan to die from hunger right?

 

[Haggisman]

It's simple really. You can choose to follow God or reject him. It's your decision. Not God's. You can't blame him for your bad choice and the consequences of that bad choice.

Rubbish.

God made man in his image.
God is perfect.
Therefore man is perfect.

Of course we all know the 3rd statement isn't true, which means one of 3 things*:

God tried to make man in his image, but it was not a perfect image, therefore God is not perfect.

God made man a perfect image of himself, however the fact that the perfect image is not perfect proves that God is not perfect.

God deliberately made man imperfect so he could play games with us and watch us all suffer; that doesn't really sound like the actions of a perfect being to me.

So please go ahead and tell us which of those is true?

Why is God running this charade/simulation/whatever of humanity, when he is omnipotent, omnipresent, transcending space and time, and already knows what is going to have will happeneding to each of us and how many of us are going to live in suffering and fail to jump through his little hoops to get to a supposed heaven? Does that really sound like a being worthy of worship, or even respect?

* Unless the Bible is wrong on that, and considering that's one of the first things we find out about God, why should we trust anything else it says?

 

[TheDeplorable]

Your idea of cause and effect is flawed, it is not coherent with your stance.

I don't believe I even spoke of cause and effect. I spoke of choices and responsibility.

Speaking from a viewpoint that God even exists, then he must be responsible for every sin ever.

Can you please explain how you jumped to this conclusion? Let's look at your assertion syllogistically:

1.God exists
2.Therefore God is responsible for all sins.

I'm not connecting 1 and 2 here.

The fact that homosexuality is even a potentiality of life on earth surely boils down to God,

This depends on what you mean by boil down to. If you mean, God created all life therefore sin would not exist if God did not exist. Then to this I can agree. But I can't see the jump to claim God is responsible for sin.

Sin is an act that is deemed unworthy by God and to God. He defines it. He gave us the ability to make choices. We can choose to act the way He wishes us to, or we can choose to disobey and go against His moral law. If we choose the latter, we sin. That's what sin is.

that's before you even consider what has been defined as sin.

I defined it above.

If you really think god made humanity capable of being homosexual

I believe he gave us the ability to make moral choices, including bad choices, yes.

just to create some people who are more or less destined for hell

I don't believe this (though some Christians do). I believe all Christians can choose to follow God. If you follow God, that includes repentance. It's not possible to identify as an out gay man and be repentant for your sins. So such a person is not following God. If they're not following God, they're not able to hear God and will be deaf to his wishes. And so that person is choosing his lifestyle above choosing God. That person is choosing hell.

How can people honestly believe this and worship at the same time?

You believe God is evil because your sense of morality has been warped. This is because you are turned away from God. This is because you prefer to live a sinful life than realise that your calling is different. These are all your choices, not God's. God would prefer that you listen to Him.

 

[TheDeplorable]

God made man in his image.
God is perfect.
Therefore man is perfect.

The fault in your logic is to equate "making in His image" as "creating an exact replica". That is clearly not the case. We are not Gods.

God tried to make man in his image, but it was not a perfect image, therefore God is not perfect.

Once again, making man in his image does not mean making a duplicate.

Why is God running this charade/simulation/whatever of humanity, when he is omnipotent, omnipresent, transcending space and time, and already knows what is going to have will happeneding to each of us and how many of us are going to live in suffering and fail to jump through his little hoops to get to a supposed heaven? Does that really sound like a being worthy of worship, or even respect?

What a terrible picture you've created of God. You must truely hate Him. Tell me, what is it about Christian teaching that terrifies you so much? Is it possibly the idea that it might be true? If so, then doesn't it terrify you that you're living the wrong life?

 

[dowie]

From the summary of judgement on this case.

Was I correct as a matter of law to hold that the appellants had discriminated against the respondent directly on grounds of sexual orientation contrary to the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2006 - Yes;

In short the judge concluded (in part), that Ashers bakery had discriminated against Gareth Lee directly on the grounds of his sexual orientation. So yes the courts do disagree with you.

no, not in terms of what I posted in the relevant post there and I was trying to be clear about that

if you want to change to the wider thread/topic then yes I don't agree that this is right overall (whether that is the law or the way the law has been interpreted here) - though I'm not making any legal arguments and I'm not in any position to state whether the right legal decision was made by the court

however re: my post being questioned:

no it didn't

the court ruled that the political message was an intrinsic part of their identity

it didn't state that the bakers refused to serve gay people in a general sense

Although it is clear that the judge spent some time explaining her conclusion that the appellants had knowledge or perception either consciously or unconsciously that the respondent was gay or associated with others who were gay, she did not rely on that finding in her conclusion. She found that the appellants cancelled the order as they opposed same sex marriage. If she had come to the view that the order was cancelled because the respondent was perceived as being gay, this would have been the most straightforward case of direct discrimination and would undoubtedly have been plainly expressed by her. We conclude therefore that the finding was not material to her determination.

it isn't straightforward discrimination, the bakers are happy to serve gay people - it is because the political message was 'intrinsically linked' to their sexuality that this became a discrimination case, that they were gay doesn't matter

the bakers aren't refusing to serve gay people in the general sense

anyway - while you're quoting me - do you care to answer the previous question I asked of you a few pages back as quibbling over whether you think I said something the courts agreed/disagreed with is rather sidetracking whereas I'd be interested in the views on the question posed from people in support of this ruling.

 

[asim18]

I don't believe I even spoke of cause and effect. I spoke of choices and responsibility.

So what is the ultimate reason homosexuality even exists if it isn't to pick some people to feed to God's mate Satan?

If you claim that it's a choice, and also claim that God created life. You cant deny that homosexuality isn't a causal factor of God. You can wipe out every homosexual person on earth, the capacity and potentiality for homosexualism will continue to exist in the very fabric of life.

Can you please explain how you jumped to this conclusion? Let's look at your assertion syllogistically:

1.God exists
2.Therefore God is responsible for all sins.

I'm not connecting 1 and 2 here.

You're choosing not to connect the two, because you're choosing to deny by way of omission.

3. God created life.

You said that too didn't you? There's your connection.

This depends on what you mean by boil down to. If you mean, God created all life therefore sin would not exist if God did not exist. Then to this I can agree. But I can't see the jump to claim God is responsible for sin.

Sin is an act that is deemed unworthy by God and to God. He defines it. He gave us the ability to make choices. We can choose to act the way He wishes us to, or we can choose to disobey and go against His moral law. If we choose the latter, we sin. That's what sin is.

I don't know what anything has to do with "what sin is".

I said homosexuality is being a potentiality of life boils down to god because YOU said God created life, and therefore homosexuals.

Are you somehow denying that God creates homosexuals now? Because if god doesn't create homosexuals then he didn't create you either.

I defined it above.

I didn't mean the definition of the word "sin" lol

I meant what god has defined AS sins. Jeeeez

I believe he gave us the ability to make moral choices, including bad choices, yes.

So then god must have created bad morals too then if there is a choice? You cant just say god created the concept of morality and then blanket deny that god has anything to do with the existence of bad morals

I don't believe this (though some Christians do). I believe all Christians can choose to follow God. If you follow God, that includes repentance. It's not possible to identify as an out gay man and be repentant for your sins. So such a person is not following God. If they're not following God, they're not able to hear God and will be deaf to his wishes. And so that person is choosing his lifestyle above choosing God. That person is choosing hell.

If God creates a man to be homosexual, and then that same man has sex with a man, then how on earth is that going against God's wishes?

Surely his wishes are apparent if you are living in reality lmao, why would you succumb to some hallucination of "hearing" god saying "I don't want you to be gay" when god has created a Men to be gay right here in our space-time continuum?

Surely NOT acting on his God given homosexual urges is going against God's will?

You believe God is evil because your sense of morality has been warped. This is because you are turned away from God. This is because you prefer to live a sinful life than realise that your calling is different. These are all your choices, not God's. God would prefer that you listen to Him.

I know God, as a fantastical character, is evil because I simply have a superior sense of morality, causality, understanding, etc. If my morality has to be warped in order for it to be superior then so be it.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

What a terrible picture you've created of God. You must truely hate Him. Tell me, what is it about Christian teaching that terrifies you so much?

His believers sometimes do a great job for him.

Is it possibly the idea that it might be true? If so, then doesn't it terrify you that you're living the wrong life?

I know this is just empty rhetoric on your part but just as a FYI, this kind of strawman leap doesn't reflect positively on you or, perhaps more importantly, your views.

On the plus side, you've come in all guns blazing in your 20-odd posts so at least we're clear that you stand on the far right and have God in your corner. No need to make an introduction thread, eh?

 

[mame]

Well if God made the land and the sea on the 3rd day (or something like that) and Adam an Eve on the 6th day then there were no dinosaurs? and man didn't evolve from apes?

For me, The bible says that if you work on a Sunday you will be "put to death" Well, I work some Sundays and as much as I wish I didn't, death isn't what I want just now.

Exodus 35:2 ESV / 101 helpful votes

Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-41 ESV / 31 helpful votes

 

[Glaucus]

Well if God made the land and the sea on the 3rd day (or something like that) and Adam an Eve on the 6th day then there were no dinosaurs? and man didn't evolve from apes?

worse than that is earth was made before the sun, according to genesis, something we have direct observation off.

its so riddled with holes, that anyone who believes it and argues wont change their mind by your posts. they've already had to put up defence wall from their own mind.
which also goes against the bible, as it also says unless you truly test your faith its worthless. and well there obviously isn't any testing going on.

 

[asim18]

Tell me, what is it about Christian teaching that terrifies you so much? Is it possibly the idea that it might be true?

Remarkable.

 

[Shampoo]

.

 

[TheDeplorable]

So what is the ultimate reason homosexuality even exists if it isn't to pick some people to feed to God's mate Satan?

Ultimate reason for existing does not equate to responsibility. The person who makes the choice is responsible for the action.

Let's put it another way.

If Adolf Hitler's mum had never existed, the holocaust would never have happened. Does this mean that Hitler's mum is morally responsible for the holocaust?

You might tendentiously argue that she could've brought him up better. But what if he just wouldn't listen to her? (which is how we are with God when we sin).

If you claim that it's a choice, and also claim that God created life. You cant deny that homosexuality isn't a causal factor of God. .

See above. Causation does not equate to responsibility. God gave us the ability to make moral choices. We can choose to make good choices. We can choose to make bad choices. You cannot blame God for us making bad choices, especially when he's explicit about what he wants us to do.

You can wipe out every homosexual person on earth, the capacity and potentiality for homosexualism will continue to exist in the very fabric of life

Sin will exist so long as we have the ability to make moral choices, yes. Because we have the ability to make bad choices, which involves sinning.

You're choosing not to connect the two, because you're choosing to deny by way of omission.

3. God created life.

You said that too didn't you? There's your connection.

God created life. But He didn't create sin. We create sin when we choose to make moral choices which go against what He wants us to do.

I don't know what anything has to do with "what sin is".

Sin is an immoral act that goes contrary to the will of God. We created sin by choosing to live against the wishes of our creator.

I said homosexuality is being a potentiality of life boils down to god because YOU said God created life, and therefore homosexuals.

I don't believe homosexuality is a "thing". Modern identity politics makes it a thing. In Christian teaching there are only 2 moral choices: following God's wishes, and going against them. Going against them is sinning. A homosexual sexual act is contrary to God's wishes. It is sinful. As I said above, God didn't create sin, he only gave us the ability to make choices, including wrong choices. It is us that makes those choices. We cannot deflect responsibility for our actions and we always have the ability to repent and change our behaviour. God is willing to forgive, but he can't forgive if we don't repent.

Are you somehow denying that God creates homosexuals now?

He only created people. Homosexuals are not a separate species.

I didn't mean the definition of the word "sin" lol

I meant what god has defined AS sins. Jeeeez

These are both the same thing.

So then god must have created bad morals too then if there is a choice?

God created the moral law. He is the arbiter for what is good and bad.

You cant just say god created the concept of morality and then blanket deny that god has anything to do with the existence of bad morals

He created people. People who are responsible for their own actions. Those people can choose to do bad things. God holds them to account for their choices.

If God creates a man to be homosexual,

God does not do this. He creates us to follow Him and to glorify Him.

Surely NOT acting on his god given homosexual urges is going against God's will?

A human being's sinful urges come from his desire to rebel; from his desire not to follow God, because he wants to put other things in God's place. These could be any number of things, from power, to money, to popularity or indeed to sex.

If we worship those things instead of God, we are rebelling. We are choosing our own morality instead of God's morality. This stops us from hearing God.

I know God, as a character, is evil because I simply have a superior sense of morality. If my morality has to be warped in order for it to be superior then so be it.

People who are rebelling against God are going to feel this way. This is because their sin is more important to them than worshipping God.

This is your choice. I'm sorry that you've made the wrong choice.

 

[jpod]

The fault in your logic...............

What a terrible picture you've created of God. You must truely hate Him. Tell me, what is it about Christian teaching that terrifies you so much? Is it possibly the idea that it might be true? If so, then doesn't it terrify you that you're living the wrong life?

Faulty logic you say? The irony.

I will tell you what terrifies me about Christian teaching - or any religious teaching - you are not happy unless everyone else thinks like you. That is why the religious raise their kids into this nonsense rather than letting them reach 18 and let them decide. If they did it would die out in a generation or three.

Presumably you have discounted all the other world religions and flavours of Christianity.

And what is so good about crucifying your son, telling people they are born sick, getting people to worship you, I could go on.

Religions were mans first attempt at understanding the universe we live in, science and philosophy are our second attempt and we have discovered and created much more awe-inspiring things than anything in bronze age scripture.

 

[jpod]

If Adolf Hitler's mum had never existed, the holocaust would never have happened. Does this mean that Hitler's mum is morally responsible for the holocaust?

See above. Causation does not equate to responsibility. God gave us the ability to make moral choices. We can choose to make good choices. We can choose to make bad choices. You cannot blame God for us making bad choices, especially when he's explicit about what he wants us to do.

Sin will exist so long as we have the ability to make moral choices, yes. Because we have the ability to make bad choices, which involves sinning.

God created life. But He didn't create sin. We create sin when we choose to make moral choices which go against what He wants us to do.

Sin is an immoral act that goes contrary to the will of God. We created sin by choosing to live against the wishes of our creator.

I don't believe homosexuality is a "thing". Modern identity politics makes it a thing. In Christian teaching there are only 2 moral choices: following God's wishes, and going against them. Going against them is sinning. A homosexual sexual act is contrary to God's wishes. It is sinful. As I said above, God didn't create sin, he only gave us the ability to make choices, including wrong choices. It is us that makes those choices. We cannot deflect responsibility for our actions and we always have the ability to repent and change our behaviour. God is willing to forgive, but he can't forgive if we don't repent.

He only created people. Homosexuals are not a separate species.

These are both the same thing.

God created the moral law. He is the arbiter for what is good and bad.

He created people. People who are responsible for their own actions. Those people can choose to do bad things. God holds them to account for their choices.

God does not do this. He creates us to follow Him and to glorify Him.

A human being's sinful urges come from his desire to rebel; from his desire not to follow God, because he wants to put other things in God's place. These could be any number of things, from power, to money, to popularity or indeed to sex.

If we worship those things instead of God, we are rebelling. We are choosing our own morality instead of God's morality. This stops us from hearing God.

People who are rebelling against God are going to feel this way. This is because their sin is more important to them than worshipping God.

This is your choice. I'm sorry that you've made the wrong choice.

Presumably God made Adolf in your universe.

I assume you are aware that the church sanctioned the Nazis. The Jews claim they are Gods chosen people.

Do you have any choice, any freedom, if you believe in the original sin?

I didn't get asked if I wanted Jesus to die for my sins. I had no choice. There is no free choice.

To assume your view is correct and non-believers have made the wrong choice is supercilious; pathognomonic of those with faith presumably assuming they are doing Gods work by posting this utter nonsense on OCUK using a PC invented by scientists.

Why not get back to the OP.

 

[TheDeplorable]

Faulty logic you say? The irony.

I unpicked the holes in their logic. Do the same to mine. Let's see.

I will tell you what terrifies me about Christian teaching - or any religious teaching - you are not happy unless everyone else thinks like you

I've never said anything like this. So this is a strawman. More faulty logic.

I don't ask that anyone thinks like me. The truth will remain the truth regardless of who believes it. If you choose not to follow God, that is your choice.

I've said that numerous times. All I've done is point out that the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin.

People then get very defensive about this. But why? Why should it matter to you what we think? You believe God isn't real. Or is there maybe a teensy-weensy part of you that fears it might be true?

Contrary to the idea that Christianity is wishful thinking, I believe atheism is wishful thinking. It would suit you much better to be free to live a sinful life than to know you are living the wrong life.

 

[Angilion]

It's not irrelevant and it's not false.

It is because you wrote this:

Should we really be expecting minority groups to have to shop around to find businesses willing to serve them? Is that the best we can achieve? Segregation?

Which is, as I said, irrelevant to this case because the bakery did not and does not refuse to serve homosexuals.

I specify minority because it's relevant to the idea of segregation or oppression. It's rather difficult to segregate or oppress a majority, since they have the bigger voice and, in the case of services being offered, the bigger spending power.

It isn't particularly difficult for a minority to oppress a majority. In fact, it's quite common. The relevant factor is power. Numbers are one form of power, but they're not the only form of power. There's a horrifyingly extreme example I can think of that's local - the Norman oppression of the English.

In any case, everyone is in one minority or another. As far as I can tell, the only purpose for the word is to rationalise discrimination.

 

[asim18]

This is your choice. I'm sorry that you've made the wrong choice.

Ignoring the rest of your illogical and downright delusionary post....

I'm not even homosexual lmao. What choice are you talking about?

 

[Angilion]

What if liking apples got you thrown in jail? Chemically castrated? Beaten up or murdered?

You could either pretend you don't like apples in public or you could double down and tell the world that you're not ashamed to like apples. That's how gay pride started.

I don't understand how anyone can really believe that the only two possibilities are shame or pride.

Are you ashamed or proud of having eyebrows?

Are you ashamed or proud of having toenails?

The idea that the only options are shame or pride is nonsense. You can't possibly think it's a rational argument. It's so irrational that it's arguably insane.

I have less contempt for people who are honest about supporting <insert favoured biological group here> pride than for people who do so and hide behind irrational excuses rather than standing up for their own position, vile though it is.

 

[TheDeplorable]

Presumably God made Adolf in your universe.

In your universe too.

I assume you are aware that the church sanctioned the Nazis. The Jews claim they are Gods chosen people.

And your point is?

Do you have any choice, any freedom, if you believe in the original sin?

I have said repeatedly we have choices. And God will hold us all to account for our choices.

I didn't get asked if I wanted Jesus to die for my sins. I had no choice. There is no free choice.

I didn't realise he needed consent from you. You have the freedom to listen to God, which starts by repenting of your sins. I'm willing to bet you don't want to do that - yet.

To assume your view is correct and non-believers have made the wrong choice is supercilious. Presumably you are doing Gods work by posting this utter nonsense on OCUK.

I haven't even spoken about belief.

I posted on this thread to defend the fact that I believe the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin; I then had to make the point that this is not cruel, since we all have the ability to make moral choices.

That's pretty much all I've said. It seems to have stirred you and others up though.

I wonder why it bothers you if it's all clear nonsense?

 

[TheDeplorable]

I'm not even homosexual lmao. What choice are you talking about?

Your choice not to follow God. To worship your sins instead.