Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[Angilion]

The idea of Pride (gay version) is to celebrate something that is traditionally vilified. It's a counter-balance to negativity, rather than an attempt at promotion over and above heterosexuality.

Black History Month is similar. A time to recognise a history that is often marginalised/ignored. Every month is White History Month, much like every day is Hetero-Pride day.

The idea of biological group pride is biological group pride. Making excuses and blaming the target group (i.e. everyone who isn't in the "right" biological group) is just being dishonest about it. That's politically useful until you have enough power to promote irrational prejudice openly without challenge, but being politically useful doesn't make it any better.

If we lived in a truly post-sexuality time, then Gay Pride would be unnecessary. Unfortunately we don't and pretending we do (as your belief seems to) is naive at best, or otherwise simply ignorant.

I don't pretend we do.

I do think we should try to move towards that rather than away from it.

 

[Akagi]

I don't believe homosexuality is a "thing". Modern identity politics makes it a thing..

Your username is highly appropriate.

Anyone who in this day and age still thinks sexuality is a choice is just... A complete delusional nutcase...

I find it difficult to accept that people like you still exist.

 

[Angilion]

[..]
As for the Muslim butcher comparison, it is illegal for Muslim butchers NOT to offer pork.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-colombes-paris-france-good-price-supermarket.

That's in France, which has very different laws on the subject of religion.

 

[TheDeplorable]

Anyone who in this day and age still thinks sexuality is a choice is just... Something out of this world...

In this day and age...Because pointing out the current year is an effective argument...Oh wait...

It's been proven by science that it's not a choice, has it?

No, it hasn't. "Born this way" was a political slogan. It's not been proven in the slightest.

In any case, I believe all our actions are choices. Unless someone straps you down and injects you with some mind altering poison that causes you to commit violent actions you're unaware of. Excepting a case like this, we can choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. Even if someone has a greater proclivity towards certain actions (just as someone with a short temper might find it more difficult not to be aggressive and violent) does not relieve us of responsibility for our choices.

 

[Akagi]

There is overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a choice.

You are just choosing to ignore it because it goes against a sentence someone wrote in a book thousands of years ago.

Do you completely reject science? Or do you cherry pick bits and pieces to oppose in accordance with your belief?

You do know that the vast majority of modern Christians have embraced homosexuality?

 

[Angilion]

Who decides who's a protected minority?

Whoever has enough power. Same as everything, really.

 

[asim18]

Your choice not to follow God. To worship your sins instead.

It isn't my choice to follow or not follow a particular God, the Abrahamic character of God, is not actually a God. And that conclusion is based on more logic and reasoning than you can muster, pal.

Furthermore, how does my decision to not follow a fantasy character equate to me worshipping sins?

 

[Boycey0211]

Your username is highly appropriate.

Anyone who in this day and age still thinks sexuality is a choice is just... A complete delusional nutcase...

I find it difficult to accept that people like you still exist.

Do you completely reject science? Or do you cherry pick bits and pieces to oppose in accordance with your belief?

His attitude is (not surprising for GD) disgusting, as predicted.

Mrs's dad is an aspiring vicar, she is atheist, as is her mum, and I'm agnostic. At no point ever has his faith in god ever affected my/our lives as far as I'm aware and AFAIK hes perfectly happy having his own faith and preaching to other believers. Pretty sure he also knows that being gay isn't a choice, and wouldn't dictate as such.

It's left down to idiots to proclaim as such it seems.

 

[timebomb26]

In this day and age...Because pointing out the current year is an effective argument...Oh wait...

It's been proven by science that it's not a choice, has it?

No, it hasn't. "Born this way" was a political slogan. It's not been proven in the slightest.

So by that logic I can just switch and choose to find men attractive?

This thread has turned in to an absolute ****show. I'm normally up for a good lively debate, but when it comes to religious people vs not, it's like arguing with brick walls as both sides are so entrenched in their views.

As for the actual subject, I'm still torn to which side I take. On one side I don't think business should be able to discriminate against people, but perhaps that should just be applied to larger companies? This is a family run business and I find it a little hard to take that they are forced to do something they are clearly uncomfortable with.

Let them have their views, however misguided, as it is their right.

 

[Akagi]

Furthermore, how does my decision to not follow a fantasy character equate to me worshipping sins?

I don't think we need to go that far really, I think it is perfectly acceptable to believe in a God, it is a comfort, a rock, and a possible 'explanation' in a world of uncertainty for billions of people. Just one you and I choose not to believe.

I was merely questioning a particular strain of TheDeplorable's belief which is based on a religion he follows, because I don't think it has any place in modern society.

 

[Angilion]

Yep. I stick to what God says. Gays are not natural. Simple. My view. Or am i not allowed to have that view?

You're allowed to, but your claim that a god speaks to you in your head should not be binding on anyone else. I think that it's probably a serious mental illness.

 

[Akagi]

I think that it's probably a serious mental illness.

With that I'm going to bed...

Just remember, on both sides, that there is nothing to be gained through arguing about this. As I said earlier, these beliefs are ingrained deep within some people. It cannot be simply overwritten by someone elses argument. Others meanwhile, are open to questioning their beliefs, and adapting. I don't think anyone involved in this to-and-fro falls into the latter category. At least not comfortably!

Its probably better for everyone if this debate just stops... Wars have been fought over this sort of thing, so a forum debate isn't going to do anything but get everyone worked up and get a thread locked.

Night all.

 

[Woden]

In this day and age...Because pointing out the current year is an effective argument...Oh wait...

It's been proven by science that it's not a choice, has it?

No, it hasn't. "Born this way" was a political slogan. It's not been proven in the slightest.

In any case, I believe all our actions are choices. Unless someone straps you down and injects you with some mind altering poison that causes you to commit violent actions you're unaware of. Excepting a case like this, we can choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. Even if someone has a greater proclivity towards certain actions (just as someone with a short temper might find it more difficult not to be aggressive and violent) does not relieve us of responsibility for our choices.

So when did you choose to be straight?

 

[asim18]

So when did you choose to be straight?

There's a gaping hole in his understanding of causality.

 

[TheDeplorable]

There is overwhelming evidence that homosexuality is not a choice.

Show it then. Come on. Stump up.

You are just choosing to ignore it because it goes against a sentence someone wrote in a book thousands of years ago.

I haven't seen any. I believe in moral agency because I know myself when I commit sins, I'm capable of not committing those sins. I just chose not to. The same is true of everyone. When the Bible describes this, it's describing a truth we can feel is true inside of ourselves.

If a kid steals sweets from a shop, is he capable of making a different choice? Of course. And with the ability to choose comes responsibility for those choices.

When you play a game of chess and you make a bad move and lose your Queen, you can't knock the pieces down and claim the game is rigged. You knew the rules and making a bad move had consequences.

Do you completely reject science?

I don't reject science at all. I'm a big fan of logic, reason and empirical evidence. Show me the empirical evidence that we don't have the ability to make choices. Show me the evidence, even, that homosexuality is a "thing" and not just a self-selected identity.

You do know that the vast majority of modern Christians have embraced homosexuality?

I'll let you into a little secret. *whispers*: no they haven't!

 

[TheDeplorable]

It isn't my choice to follow or not follow a particular God, the Abrahamic character of God, is not actually a God. And that conclusion is based on more logic and reasoning than you can muster, pal.

You have clearly chosen not to. I find it highly amusing that you're denying you've chosen not to follow the God of the Bible. Why would you say that?

Furthermore, how does my decision to not follow a fantasy character equate to me worshipping sins?

You just contradicted yourself. You just admitted now that you've chosen not to follow him.

You choose not to follow God's moral teachings because you prefer your sins. Keep up.

 

[Akagi]

Just a thought.

I'm not sure that your beliefs are the true problem here, I think its more that you are a closed minded, dogmatic, condescending individual.

Nobody here is interested in your view on this matter, so why don't you offer some evidence to support your belief that homosexuality is a choice, instead of asking me to waste my time linking hundreds of articles and studies which show otherwise?

 

[Angilion]

You can have any view you want, you just can't discriminate based on them.

Good has very little to say about homosexuality, and Jesus said nothing. But then the Bible bans mixed fibres and pork, while it okays slavery and capital punishment (despite "thou shalt not kill"). So I wouldn't put too much faith in it for a moral guide.

As far as I know, "thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation anyway. It's more like "thou shalt not kill without permission from the religious authorities".

It's even possible to argue that the Christian bible says nothing about homosexuality. It all depends on how you translate/interpret the handful of verses that might be of some relevance to homosexual sex (and they are specifically about sex rather than sexual orientation in general).

Take the famous verses from Romans, for example. They're about some people who either didn't convert to Christianity when it was preached at them or did so and later reconverted back. The Abrahamic god then supposedly punished these heterosexual people by forcing homosexual lust on them. That doesn't make much sense as a condemnation of homosexuality. The only reason homosexual lust would bother the people would be that it was unusual for them (and the passage emphasises that aspect - the common translation/interpretation of "unnatural" is dodgy). If they were homosexual, then obviously feeling homosexual lust would be normal for them and thus couldn't be used by a god to show disapproval of their disobedience.

It's all down to interpretation. I get the impression that it has been done backwards, i.e. some Christians with a downer on homosexuality trawled through their texts to find things they could interpret into supporting the position they'd already taken.

It gets worse when the OT is brought into play. Most if not all Christians have no idea why they supposedly should obey some of the rules in the OT but ignore most of them. I've never met one who could tell me. It seems very arbitrary.

 

[TheDeplorable]

So by that logic I can just switch and choose to find men attractive?

Is that what you want? I'm sure some people find a sexual frisson from the act of rebellion in being gay. I've heard gays say this.

Sexuality is something that is clearly developed when younger and changes with time and is far more complicated than this binary description of sexuality would indicate.

How do you explain sexual types? If I like girls with brown curly hair, do I have a brown, curly-haired gene? Can I switch to liking blondes by choice? Not by conscious choice perhaps, but choices are more than what we are aware of making. If I saw a girl who was blonde that I liked I could perhaps start to change my type by modelling my type on her. Yes I think sexuality is fluid in this way.

How do you explain sexual fetishes? Is there a leather fetish gene? Or a balloon fetish gene? Or a foot fetish gene? or a BBW fetish gene? Or any of the other million weird sexual fetishes that exist?

No. Clearly there doesn't. All of these things, and homosexuality, amount to the same thing. They are perversions. They are created by our base moral nature that gets twisted by departing from the will of God. It's not only homosexuality that is a perversion of God's will. Most human sexual desires -- particularly in an age of rampart internet pornography -- are. Clearly this is not how we were meant to be.

I know you don't want to hear this. News that you're living on immoral life against the will of God is rarely welcomed.

 

[Akagi]

How old are you TheDeplorable?

Also the reason we don't want to hear it is not because it is "news" I'm afraid to say. As a news source you are so far about as credible as The Onion.