Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

dowie said:
They haven't discriminated against a particular group per say - they've declined to create a message on a cake relating to an issue supported by a large number of that group.
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The Equality Commission seems to disagree.

dowie said:
It is a freedom of speech issue IMO - its not too different to say a London based Arab publication refusing to run a pro-Israeli advert in their publication. Would that be anti-semetic/racist? I wouldn't say it is as its the message/advert they're disagreeing with not simply a refusal to run an advert because the person requesting it happens to be Jewish.
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No it wouldn't be, unless they said "We aint running it because you are Jewish".

I do find it odd though that most people supporting the bakers keep trying to equate supporting gay marriage with being forced to "support" bad things.
 
If someone went into that bakery and asked for a cake saying "up the RA" they would refuse it and if you took it to court it would get thrown out. Ashers should have the option to reject business based on whatever they like but political statements on cakes should be thrown out of court. Also what's wrong with saying that you feel being gay is wrong if it's what you feel?
 
RDM said:
And if all the local bakeries had the same policy?
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they they'll have to go without that campaign message....

Say I want to create an advert with the following:

'this is Mohammed - look you can draw him, it doesn't matter'

and all local companies that own billboards within East London refuse to carry it... well I guess I'll have to go without
 
dowie said:
they they'll have to go without that campaign message....

Say I want to create an advert with the following:

'this is Mohammed - look you can draw him, it doesn't matter'

and all local companies that own billboards within East London refuse to carry it... well I guess I'll have to go without
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So we get back to "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs". Yay!
 
RDM said:
No it wouldn't be, unless they said "We aint running it because you are Jewish".

I do find it odd though that most people supporting the bakers keep trying to equate supporting gay marriage with being forced to "support" bad things.
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Its nothing to do with good or bad... its about the freedom to express your own views and not being forced to express something you don't believe with. Its a protected right in the USA and is supposed to be afforded some protection here too.

And again they've not refused the cake because the customers were gay they've refused the cake because of the proposed message on the cake - the Israeli advert/Arab newspaper analogy still stands.
 
dowie said:
not at all - again they've not refused to serve gay people they've refused to endorse/create a political cake supporting an issue lots of gay people support
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Fair enough and black people can sit at the back of the bus too, after all, it is only indirect discrimination, they still get a ride home.
 
RDM said:
And yet almost all of the comparisons have been to bad things.
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that's a matter of opinion - to some Jewish people 'Israel' in general isn't necessarily a bad thing, to some Christian people Gay marriage is a bad thing

you're not the sole arbitrator of 'good' and 'bad' things... this is why we have freedom of speech
 
RDM said:
Fair enough and black people can sit at the back of the bus too, after all, it is only indirect discrimination, they still get a ride home.
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no that's just a very poor analogy... no one has been refused a cake in general or been told they can only buy the second rate cakes.... they've been told the baker doesn't want to create a cake especially for them with a particular message on it.

People in creative industries turn down work for a variety of reasons... especially if they disagree with the subject matter.
 
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dowie said:
that's a matter of opinion - to some Jewish people 'Israel' in general isn't necessarily a bad thing, to some Christian people Gay marriage is a bad thing

you're not the sole arbitrator of 'good' and 'bad' things... this is why we have freedom of speech
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I sense I little intellectual dishonesty here...:)
 
dowie said:
no that's just a very poor analogy... no one has been refused a cake or been told they can only buy the second rate cakes.... they've been told the baker doesn't want to create a cake especially for them with a particular message on it.
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Tombo said:
You know for someone so reasonable you're being deliberately dense about this.
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It is deliberate, I am just using exactly the same ridiculous comparisons that others are using. e.g. Pro Gay marriage is like supporting the BNP. It is effectively indirect discrimination, which I don't really see as that much different from direct discrimination.
 
RDM said:
It is deliberate, I am just using exactly the same ridiculous comparisons that others are using. e.g. Pro Gay marriage is like supporting the BNP. It is effectively indirect discrimination, which I don't really see as that much different from direct discrimination.
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I've not said pro-gay marriage is the same as the BNP. I'm saying that turning down work that involves supporting either cause has the same principle behind it. You think the BNP is bad... I do too, I also support gay marriage... however I don't feel that people should be forced to support either.

It would be double standards if people were only allowed to turn down political messages that wider society generally thought were 'wrong' but were forced to support political messages that society generally deems 'good'.

Your protest that the BNP and Israel are me picking 'bad' causes as example is irrelevant - I've picked them as it should be obvious why someone might object to supporting them. The principle though is still the same... should someone who doesn't support say Israel, the Jewish homeland be forced to run an advert in say their Arab publication? I don't think they should, I think they've got the freedom to publish what they want to publish in line with their editorial stance.

Likewise, a baker should be able to produce/put in his shop window things he is comfortable producing... gay marriage might well be seen widely as a 'good' cause but some people don't agree with it and frankly forcing people to support/endorse a view they don't agree with is just wrong - regardless of whether its just the people with the 'wrong' opinions who are anti the 'good' things. The baker isn't a newspaper editor... but he's still running a business and has the right to have an opinion, to support causes he agrees with and not support causes he doesn't. He's refused to print a message supporting a cause he hasn't refused to serve any particular group.
 
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I disagree, I don't think that businesses should be allowed to indirectly discriminate against protected groups and feel that at least some of the comparisons being made are being deliberately done to try to show just how "unreasonable" the Equality Commission is being.

An individual has the right to free speech and freedom of expression up to the current laws on incitement, however I do not feel that we should be extending those same rights to businesses. Businesses are not people even if they are run by and owned by people.

To be honest I would like to know more details about this case as currently we only really have one side of it, the bakers.
 
RDM said:
Unfortunately for the bakery it is a political slogan around a protected group hence why the Equality Commission got involved.
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Gay Marriage isn't a group, protected or otherwise...its a position. You don't need to gay to support it and you don't have to heterosexual to oppose it.


RDM said:
And if all the local bakeries had the same policy?
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And what if pavements were made of IceCream!
 
RDM said:
I do find it odd though that most people supporting the bakers keep trying to equate supporting gay marriage with being forced to "support" bad things.
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I haven't done that, it more akin to someone refusing to bake a cake with a Support The Conservatives Party or Support Scottish Independence when the baker is a staunch Socialist or Unionist respectively.
 
RDM said:
An individual has the right to free speech and freedom of expression up to the current laws on incitement, however I do not feel that we should be extending those same rights to businesses. Businesses are not people even if they are run by and owned by people.
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Sole traders are people, partnerships are groups of people and companies are also people and its perfectly fine for them to hold a view, stance on an issue if they want.
 
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