Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[Tombo]

What about the refuse collectors who may think your way of life is contrary to their personal beliefs?

Or the paramedics you call when there's an emergency?

Those are employees not a business and are public sector so they wouldn't be able to do that. Not that I think the laws should be abolished completely anyway, I don't think you should be able to refuse to serve someone based on their gender/race/sexuality but I do think you shouldn't be forced to write messages they don't agree with such as support for gay marriage as in this case.

 

[Frightful Boar]

What about the refuse collectors who may think your way of life is contrary to their personal beliefs?

Or the paramedics you call when there's an emergency?

I bet it's not the same when it's a lifestyle you don't like.

Would you like to present whatever service makes you a living to a rapist, or a KKK murderer of blacks who has served his time? Here you go Jeffrey Dahmer, I know you injected acid into kids brains, but I'm happy to provide you with a double espresso.

Let people just do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. Letting men bugger other men doesn't hurt anyone apart from the participants and refusing someone a cake-baking doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[wndsr]

Those are employees not a business and are public sector so they wouldn't be able to do that.

Okay, I'll take that on board.

What about cashiers in the local bank? Or supermarket checkout staff?

To be honest, it doesn't matter as my view won't change. I couldn't give a toss what personal view people have as for as long as they are dealing with me in a professional sense (i.e. providing a service) their views are utterly irrelevant.

 

[anything I don't mind]

There is no way businesses could get away with banning groups of people in this day and age, they would surely be boycotted by all types of people. I know i would boycott shops if they refused entry based on country of origin and so on. At the same time i respect the right of clubs or businesses to specialist their services to cater for specific groups of people and restrict entry based on that.

For example if you have a jewish only club then why would you want non jews to be allowed to join that do not understand or respect your values and so on. Most businesses would never restrict their market like that, the only time they would reduce their market like that is if they thought that it would haev a positive effect on sales. ie if there was a group of people that was known to cause problems for the business or to deter other groups of people from using the business then it would be within their interest to stop them from using the business. example of this would be mcdonalds banning children under a certain age after a certain time in the evening to prevent trouble makers from pushing other customers from joining.

This idea though that all the shops will start banning different types of people if there was no equality commission underestimates how far people have progressed in that regard and is realy now just people making a living on the coattails of past conflict.

There is however a big difference between putting a sign up banning groups of people and forcing someone to make a cake with a slogan for a socio-political movement that they do not agree with. These people like to claim they are victims it allows them to get special treatment from the likes of the special treatment and favours commission and comparing their "struggle" with real past oppression is often the way in which this is done.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

What about the refuse collectors who may think your way of life is contrary to their personal beliefs?

Or the paramedics you call when there's an emergency?

They are not business owners, they are public servants. I expect them to get the sack.

What about cashiers in the local bank? Or supermarket checkout staff?

They could be fired by the business who employs them. Assuming that business has equality rules.

Yet as the place remains open (for however long it manages to stay afloat), it remains a beacon and cesspool for hatred and division to fester, safe in the knowledge and outward advertisement that we're in a country that has no problem with such practice.

All that does is further fuel, and keep alive, ignorant division. It allows disgusting people to continue justifying their disgusting views. It offers nothing positive to society. It's nonsense.

What it does is gives people a choice, rather than having to subscribe to the state mandated morality. I don't want the likes of Tony Blair and David Cameron telling me what my morals should be. Do you?

 

[RDM]

'Gay marriage' isn't a protected group, the campaign group for it isn't a protected group... these might be things lots of members of a protected group support... which is why we've seen the knee jerk reaction over this but it's again refusing a product/idea not refusing a customer.

Businesses do have a right to endorse/refuse to endorse things - you've had plenty of examples if this already... Castel for example and his transport company's position on advertising, Raymond and his photography policy... some printers refuse some political fliers, some newspapers refuse advertising....

They could refuse to create any cake using the colour green if they wanted to... that's entirely their choice as a business.

See the many previous replies to exactly the same point...

 

[Tombo]

Okay, I'll take that on board.

What about cashiers in the local bank? Or supermarket checkout staff?

To be honest, it doesn't matter as my view won't change. I couldn't give a toss what personal view people have as for as long as they are dealing with me in a professional sense (i.e. providing a service) their views are utterly irrelevant.

Well you're still talking about individual employees who have to follow company policy and such a policy is very likely to have a serious impact on their business so would be unlikely to exist.

I just disagree with the idea that the law is the only thing stopping people being bigots. I'd like to clarify that as the law is already in place I wouldn't put any effort into repealing it and I wouldn't shop somewhere with such a policy if it was.

 

[RDM]

Well you're still talking about individual employees who have to follow company policy and such a policy is very likely to have a serious impact on their business so would be unlikely to exist.

I just disagree with the idea that the law is the only thing stopping people being bigots.

We are talking about Northern Ireland here!

You also just need to look at some of the replies in this thread to see that the law might actually be needed.

 

[anything I don't mind]

What about the refuse collectors who may think your way of life is contrary to their personal beliefs?

Or the paramedics you call when there's an emergency?

This is a good question and in my opinion where it starts to get realy tricky. The worst kind of racism from the past has been institutional racism. The big difference is that business in the private sector is voluntary. You decide as a customer who you want to do business with. If you don't like the corner shop because they don't treat you with respect you go to tesco down the road instead.

However everyone is forced to pay taxes for public services, thus it is not a voluntary transaction. There is no way you can opt out of rubbish collection and get a private sector replacement, ok technically you could probably pay a private sector company to do it and keep your rubbish separate, but you will still be forced to pay for the public sector rubbish collection through taxes. Institutional racism should be discouraged no matter what as it is involuntary transaction. All the worst kinds of racism in history have been through institutional racism, segregation, ethnic cleansing and so on, all of these come about as a direct result of government. This not some cake maker that refuses to make someone a cake and then the next day we have segregation and ethnic cleansing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

 

[spoffle]

I reiterate that it wasn't the individuals buying the cake who went to the press on this - it was the business owners.

I'm not saying they give up their beliefs and morals, but while they are working they are doing tasks for the business, not for themselves. As far as I'm concerned it's the same as people in supermarkets deciding they are unable to handle certain goods because it's against their religion - I don't agree with it at all.

I know it was the bakers that went to the press, and I cannot understand why they did that.

However, I don't think that changes anything in regards to what happened, I think both parties have blown this up to be something it's not.

 

[Tombo]

We are talking about Northern Ireland here!

You also just need to look at some of the replies in this thread to see that the law might actually be needed.

True about Northern Ireland, then again that would make a no Irish policy concerning.

As for the replies in here I don't recall anything too extreme but are they likely to be business owners anyway?

 

[Orcish-Horde]

The commission have a vested interest in finding problems in equality, so the chances are they'll tend to be on the side of the complainant.

We need to get rid of not only the commission, but all equality laws relating to who a business can serve. Let the free-market determine the future of those businesses which will not provide particular products or services.

N Ireland has major problems with equality and will do for a very long time, N Ireland is on the egde of another political pee storm which may turn violent. Business cryed a river of tears about the flag protests which was viewed by many to be about equality, on both sides and is the same with the pending pee storm to come. Business is business and should be indifferent, government sets legality and religous morality should only apply to the religous.

 

[Pestilence]

What it does is gives people a choice, rather than having to subscribe to the state mandated morality. I don't want the likes of Tony Blair and David Cameron telling me what my morals should be. Do you?

Eh, I'm somewhere in the middle on it. So I do agree with you to an extent.

Mind you, I'm a hopeless misanthrope so my judgment in these things is terribly clouded. I hate everybody equally.

The problem is, when the "free" social morality becomes driven by a majority on the wrong side of fairness, then what do you do? Just leave? I guess on a number of topics we're already in that situation, so... pff. I dunno. Freedom is necessary, but people given absolute freedom will generally act like idiots but you're also quite right in that I don't want to be told by someone else just how I should think.

Eh, it's all ****** regardless. Humanity will never cease bickering, hating and generally acting like a giant *******. My point in the sign wasn't so much intended as pessimistic hyperbole as it was a realistic situation in which your suggestion to allow such a thing would cause direct hurt to anyone who happened to see it and was amongst those proscribed as banned for fickle reasons.

Sure, the community at large might band together to support them and get it removed/the place shut down... but what if they don't? Then you have a little hot-bed in the middle of some town/city where self-righteous bigots and racists can come together and rile eachother up in indignation.

Then again... you could probably just call that a "Church Group."

I'm going to stop thinking about it as it just makes me hate people even more. Sorry for the distraction!

For what it's worth, I have no problem with the refusal to bake this cake. It's a message that the owners did not agree with, and that's it at brass tacks. I'd refuse to bake a cake with "KKK BURN ALL *******" on it, as that offends my sense of social right. In this case, it's no different on the base level.

The problem I DO have with their refusal is that it's based solely on backwards religious indoctrination, and they've taken it to the media as such. If they'd just said "We don't do political statements and the like", then fine, but the "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" God-bothering just makes them paint themselves as mindless bigots.

 

[dowie]

What about the refuse collectors who may think your way of life is contrary to their personal beliefs?

Or the paramedics you call when there's an emergency?

What about them? Are they commissioned to create things? Or are you confusing refusing to create a particular product with refusing to serve particular customers.

Incidentally it's the business not the employees making the call... also a refuse company could have a policy not to collect certain waste.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

N Ireland has major problems with equality and will do for a very long time, N Ireland is on the egde of another political pee storm which may turn violent. Business cryed a river of tears about the flag protests which was viewed by many to be about equality, on both sides and is the same with the pending pee storm to come. Business is business and should be indifferent, government sets legality and religous morality should only apply to the religous.

You're right, it's a difficult situation. Obviously what I advocate can exacerbate sectarian tensions, there is no denying that. But telling a catholic business that it must serve protestant customers isn't actually solving the problem. If anything, it's just wallpapering over the cracks.

That said, in exceptional circumstances such as we see in Northern Ireland, it may be prudent to maintain the sectarian equality laws. On the mainland, I see no value in doing so.

 

[RDM]

As for the replies in here I don't recall anything too extreme but are they likely to be business owners anyway?

A couple of our more "Christian" members have been cutting it pretty close but dressing it as humour so it's all ok...

 

[kedge]

Fixed that for you considering it was the baker that decided to take it to the press...

Oh boo hoo from a pro-gay. Why should anyone support gay marriage in any way shape or form?. This news story is both hilarious and annoying, hilarious because grown ups want a cake with muppets on it, just lol really, i can understand for kids but for grown ups, lol. A request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage, the customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace". Why should anyone support something they don't want to, just the gay community and their demands that everyone support their worldview, sure perhaps the business law will infringe on the Christian community but not otherwise.

 

[Pestilence]

Oh boo hoo from a pro-gay. Why should anyone support gay marriage in any way shape or form?. This news story is both hilarious and annoying, hilarious because grown ups want a cake with muppets on it, just lol really, i can understand for kids but for grown ups, lol. A request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage, the customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace". Why should anyone support something they don't want to, just the gay community and their demands that everyone support their worldview, sure perhaps the business law will infringe on the Christian community but not otherwise.

You sound like a very angry person.

Could I ask your height? Just out of curiosity.

 

[kedge]

Roll on armageddon,

On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

 

[kedge]

You sound like a very angry person.

Could I ask your height? Just out of curiosity.

Grow up fool.