Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

estebanrey said:
I disagree. All businesses must ensure they do not blacklist who they do business with based on outlawed discriminatory reasons.

You can't say "we'll serve gay people, but offer them less choice than heterosexual people".
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They're simply refusing to create a custom product they're not comfortable with. People can still buy products from them, chose whatever they want... they just can't ask them to make something which is offensive or which conflicts with their personal beliefs.

A posh London interior design firm is asked by a Jewish client to source some furniture from Israel as he'd like some mementos form the 'homeland' in his new penthouse - the company has taken an ethical stance against buying Israeli products as a result of the treatment of the Palestinians... they refuse the customer's request on that basis.... Is the firm then offering Jewish people less choice - the Egyptian client they served the week before got some lovely Egyptian furniture from his home country fitted in his penthouse....
 
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Here's a theoretical situation.

A baker says to the person (straight or gay) - "if you want this message/image on your cake I'm going to have to outsource the work to another company, and charge you twice as much."

That should surely stand up in any court? Legally anyone can choose to outsource whatever they want?
 
Phantom Shadow said:
If they refused to make a cake with 2 grooms on it, even if a heterosexual person was asking for it to be made then they are providing the same choice to gay and heterosexual people.
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And either way, you're being discriminatory towards homosexuals.

Just like, as I've already pointed out, a racist joke is racist whether the victimised group is present to hear it or not. (I.e. It's the content you serve which is discriminatory, regardless of to whom you serve it)
 
Phantom Shadow said:
If they refused to make a cake with 2 grooms on it, even if a heterosexual person was asking for it to be made then they are providing the same choice to gay and heterosexual people.
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I hope this is sarcastic.

Clearly they don't have the same choice.

The heterosexual couple can have a cake that depicts them but can't have one that doesn't

The gay couple can have a couple that doesn't depict them but can have one that doesn't

They have completely opposite options.
 
estebanrey said:
And you think people should be able to discriminate so long as they have a religious book that tells them they can.

I believe the law should trump religious morality and am proud to do so.

Let me ask you a question, should I be allowed to stab my next door neighbour to death if I see him working on a Sunday? The bible says I should after all and wouldn't charging me for murder and putting me in jail denying be me my 'religious freedom'?

There are hundreds of laws and morals in the Bible that we legislate against, please tell me why you feel this one should be an exception.
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Just, LOL. Literally. Thanks for the laugh ;)

P.S. Can someone remind me please where in the Bible it says "stab thy neighbour"? Mine says "love thy neighbour" in a couple places so I'm a bit worried about where este is getting his Bibles from...
 
Rroff said:
Both of which are ultimately quite petty but I'll defend someone's right to personal belief as long as they don't try to impose that personal belief on someone else.
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don't get me wrong - I support gay marriage... I also don't believe in an independent business being forced to create something which it doesn't agree with regardless of how petty it is. I'm sure they've turned down other work before which they deemed offensive or simply bad taste.
 
FoxEye said:
Just, LOL. Literally. Thanks for the laugh ;)

P.S. Can someone remind me please where in the Bible it says "stab thy neighbour"? Mine says "love thy neighbour" in a couple places so I'm a bit worried about where este is getting his Bibles from...
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Exodus 35:2

Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
 
FoxEye said:
Just, LOL. Literally. Thanks for the laugh ;)

P.S. Can someone remind me please where in the Bible it says "stab thy neighbour"? Mine says "love thy neighbour" in a couple places so I'm a bit worried about where este is getting his Bibles from...
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"Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death."

Exodus 31:15
 
ethan said:
I'm merely stating a fact that nothing and nobody forces you or me to be either gay or heterosexual and that this might be an argument for another time.
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Attraction isn't a choice... look at a picture of Susan Boyle for example* can you, through choice, simply decide to find her desirable?

I don't think gay people choose to be attracted to other guys... they can perhaps chose to not act on it (but then they're simply in denial/in the closet).... but sexuality isn't really a choice


*I'm assuming, of course, that you're heterosexual and not attracted to her
 
It seems silly, the cake makers could have just said 'sorry we are too busy to take on more custom orders right now'.

It's mildly offensive that they are homophobic, but what worries me more is that they had to announce it and were too stupid to invent a better excuse for declining the order.

But that's religion for you.
 
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estebanrey said:
I hope this is sarcastic.

Clearly they don't have the same choice.

The heterosexual couple can have a cake that depicts them but can't have one that doesn't

The gay couple can have a couple that doesn't depict them but can have one that doesn't

They have completely opposite options.
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Still offering exactly the same selection of cakes to whomever wishes to buy them though, but yes I do get the point that it does in some way impact on homosexuals as they don't want a cake with a bride and groom on it (unless one of them likes to cross dress perhaps? :p)

If a cake shop didn't take custom orders and just had a catalogue of cakes to choose from, and only listed one wedding cake which had a bride and groom on it would that be discrimination?
 
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In fairness they do make a Bakewell with only the finest picked cherries ;)
 
cheesyboy said:
Exodus 35:2

Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
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estebanrey said:
"Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death."

Exodus 31:15
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Fair enough, but you know that the New Testament basically scraps the old Mosaic Law entirely? After Jesus coming the Jews were lost their status as the chosen people, and the old laws were explicitly done away with.

Obviously since Jews don't recognise Jesus as legit they keep (some of) the old laws. I haven't seen any Jews murdering people on Sundays tho, so either there aren't many round my way, or they stopped doing that :p
 
Phantom Shadow said:
If they refused to make a cake with 2 grooms on it, even if a heterosexual person was asking for it to be made then they are providing the same choice to gay and heterosexual people.
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If they only offer one distinct product, (this would normally be due to production costs) then that would be ok, but if they offer a bespoke service then I don't see how or why they would have (or want) grounds to decline custom, unless there was prohibitive costs involved.
 
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