Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[estebanrey]

Why should churches get an exception though? Either it's fine for everyone to discriminate on religious grounds or it's right for no one.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, you know as well as I do the gay marriage law wouldn't have gone through unless that exemption was made.

Personally I see it as a temporary measure. As soon as the majority of Christian Churches start to offer ceremonies to gay people (which will happen as the smarter ones will eventually realise it is good PR) that 'loop hole' will be closed.

 

[RDM]

How do you know they haven't refused cakes to straight people? Maybe someone asked them for a cake with a bride taking the groom with a strap-on, and they said 'no'?

You don't know that.

Maybe they find other non-gay activities offensive and have refused them also?

This is the real message:

"Nobody is allowed to express any dislike of gay groups, gay people, or gay activities. Or else! (lawyers, press, pressure groups)"

This is great. You think that equating discrimination against gays with discriminating against blacks is obviously wrong yet equating refusing a cake with a strap on is exactly the same as refusing one with two grooms on it.

Brilliant stuff! Maybe the real message you are trying to get across is that the law should allow you to use your faith as an excuse to discriminate?

 

[dowie]

could it be copyright issues with bert and ernie and nothing to do with being gay.

It could have... but it isn't as they've stated what the issue was... the copyright issue would have been an easy get out for them if they'd had legal advice before refusing the request

and they didn't actually refuse the request straight away but considered it then contacted the customer with their reasons

 

[RDM]

Why should churches get an exception though? Either it's fine for everyone to discriminate on religious grounds or it's right for no one.

It seemed to be a nice compromise between the right to practice your religion and the rights of homosexuals to marry. As far as I am aware running a bakery is not a fundamental tennent of the Christian faith.

It is a shame that some religious groups still opposed the fights of gays to marry even when given legal protections to ensure they wouldn't have to perform the ceremony. Thankfully the lost that one.

 

[RDM]

I could have... but it isn't as they've stated what the issue was... the copyright issue would have been an easy get out for them if they'd had legal advice before refusing the request

and they didn't actually refuse the request straight away but considered it then contacted the customer with their reasons

If they are anything like most bakeries then the copyright excuse would probably have fallen flat with the Iron Man and Disney cakes in the window...

 

[Zuban]

I could have... but it isn't as they've stated what the issue was... the copyright issue would have been an easy get out for them if they'd had legal advice before refusing the request

and they didn't actually refuse the request straight away but considered it then contacted the customer with their reasons

whoops so even worse should just have refused it on that, save themselves a lot of trouble!

 

[estebanrey]

By the gods man you're doing it again.

They didn't refuse to sell a gay person a cake. How... many... times...

They refused to sell a particular cake with a particular message.

OK, so it would be fine with you if a black man and a white women came in and asked for a cake with a mixed-race couple depicted on it and they were refused so long as they were allowed to buy one with an all white couple on it?

After all they are not refusing to serve mixed race partners, just cakes with 'particular' groups of people on it.

 

[Rroff]

Personally I see it as a temporary measure. As soon as the majority of Christian Churches start to offer ceremonies to gay people (which will happen as the smarter ones will eventually realise it is good PR) that 'loop hole' will be closed.

I can't see many doing that, some of the more liberal Christian movements maybe.

 

[estebanrey]

I can't see many doing that, some of the more liberal Christian movements maybe.

Now sure, but in 10 or 20 years time I'm not so sure.

Church attendances are dropping faster than a whore's drawers and the more they put themselves at odds with the general public's opinion the more they will push themselves to the sidelines. No matter how much they pretend not to be, a church is a business like any other and falls without an adequate number of customers.

Most Christian churches now accept evolutionary (despite the fact in directly contracts the creation story as told in the OT) because they know it would be stupid not to. I don't see why homosexuals shouldn't eventually get the same acceptance.

 

[Phantom Shadow]

OK, so it would be fine with you if a black man and a white women came in and asked for a cake with a mixed-race couple depicted on it and they were refused so long as they were allowed to buy one with an all white couple on it?

After all they are not refusing to serve mixed race partners, just cakes with 'particular' groups of people on it.

At what point do you draw the line though? What if someone asked for a cake with a swastika on it? Do you have to create any cake people want if it only offends you or a few people? Can you refuse to make a cake that offends most people?

 

[krooton]

Why do gays have to bring their sexuality into *everything*?

They don't. For every gay person that publicly announces it, there are 9 more just getting on with things, you just don't know that they are gay as they haven't told you. A person isn't only gay if they constantly reference the fact.

 

[estebanrey]

At what point do you draw the line though? What if someone asked for a cake with a swastika on it? Do you have to create any cake people want if it only offends you or a few people? Can you refuse to make a cake that offends most people?

You draw the line with the law. I'm sure a swastika would be seen as a symbol of racial hatred/inciting hatred so as long as the baker consults the police then there is no problem.

You could equally turn the question around and ask if a Liverpudlian should be allowed to refuse to make a cake with a Manchester United logo on.

A bakery is there to serve the whole community and should make any cake they are asked to. If there is a valid legal reason why they can't (copyright, discrimination law, inciting hatred) that is fine and they can refuse on the basis they would be breaking the law if they fulfilled the order.

There are no laws against supporting gay marriage, so the baker has no right to refuse to make one due to the 'personal beliefs' of its directors.

 

[krooton]

You could equally turn the question around and ask if a Liverpudlian should be allowed to refuse to make a cake with a Manchester United logo on.

Why not? A business can pick and choose whatever projects it wants to take on, just because someone asks for something to be made, a business isn't obliged to make it.

 

[Rroff]

Now sure, but in 10 or 20 years time I'm not so sure.

Church attendances are dropping faster than a whore's drawers and the more they put themselves at odds with the general public's opinion the more they will push themselves to the sidelines. No matter how much they pretend not to be, a church is a business like any other and falls without an adequate number of customers.

Most Christian churches now accept evolutionary (despite the fact in directly contracts the creation story as told in the OT) because they know it would be stupid not to. I don't see why homosexuals shouldn't eventually get the same acceptance.

I think your generalising a bit too much and clumping the various different Christian denominations into one basket.

 

[GSXRMovistar]

Any business should have the right to produce or not produce whatever they wish, whether that gives them any form of reputation which puts off customers then so be it. However there should not be any legal implications.

 

[Mr Badger]

Or Jihad? LOL, a Jihad cake, delicious.

For Pete's sake, you have to draw the line somewhere. A business should be allowed to trade under their own terms and conditions. It's not like that's the only cake shop they can order from. I'm sure there must be confectionery shops with gay owners, or a gay chef..

These examples are making me hungry. I want a bacon Jihad cake cooked by a gay chef and I want it now!

 

[estebanrey]

Why not? A business can pick and choose whatever projects it wants to take on, just because someone asks for something to be made, a business isn't obliged to make it.

It is if those reasons are based on race, sex, religion, disability, age or sexual orientation.

Are you in favour of scrapping employment legislation on the basis that a business should be free to hire/fire whoever they want?

 

[FoxEye]

OK, so it would be fine with you if a black man and a white women came in and asked for a cake with a mixed-race couple depicted on it and they were refused so long as they were allowed to buy one with an all white couple on it?

After all they are not refusing to serve mixed race partners, just cakes with 'particular' groups of people on it.

As unlikely as that scenario is, you need to face the reality of the world. You can't make people think the way you do, with legislation and bullying. Legal strong-arming, pressure groups, etc, so people can only agree with you and everything else is illegal.

That's essentially what you want, under the banner of "equal rights". You don't care about anyone else's rights. Like the right to express their religious beliefs. As soon as their rights are at odds with yours, you want the law to intervene on your side.

Frankly, you can't force things to change and change now. Some people don't like gay marriage. *Deal with it*. Don't think you can bully everybody into going along with something they find offensive. *There are other cake shops*.

True, there probably are people still who find black/white marriage offensive. Of course I'm not condoning this. Personally I don't give a hoot if you're gay either. Knock yourself out. I'd argue there's no religious pretext for that particular one so it would be pure prejudice. But prejudice is part of being human. And you sure as hell can't change it with lawyers.

You could end up putting someone out of business rather than them agreeing to your demands. I guess your reaction to that would be "good riddance".

 

[bitslice]

They should have gone to Mr Kipling,
if anyone can make a gay cake then it's him.

 

[Twirlywoos]

Poor bakers. Didn't a similar thing happen to a hotel or maybe it was a bed and breakfast that refused to book a gay couple?