Beheaded teacher in a street in France(Usual suspects).

[The Running Man]

First link I found so not read it

https://cairoscene.com/Business/Mus...OK-to-Rape-Non-Muslim-Women-to-Humiliate-Them

However previously I have read about the history and you can Google the following.

The prophet Muhammad married a woman called Safiyya bint Huyayy after his army killed her brother, husband and father.

So do you seriously believe she leapt into his arms and thought thanks for killing my whole family. I think you are so great how about the sexy time? And married him?

.

Did you not see the directors cut?

She was all like, "you so strong and me so horny! l Iove you long time"...

 

[Raz]

The difference is Britain has changed with time for the better. It's far from perfect but with time it has gotten better. They haven't.

Not sure how you could realistically pull the plug but

1. Since Islam isn't a race but a faith, stopping immigration isn't the answer because not all immigrants are Muslims, and not all Muslims are immigrants. Add to that the issue doesn't appear to be a major concern for Muslims here from say Indonesia.

2. As much as it sucks, we're just a page in a history book. Given that Judaism and Christianity have had reformations in a way, it's likely that at some point Islam will go through some reformation too. I know some find it hard to believe, there are a diverse range of interpretations within Islam, many of which take a much more peaceful and tolerant stand. Of course these are minority groups (currently) and their outlook may well change if they gain power.

3. We take a less strict and harsher approach than China and put more emphasis on engagement with communities, with tougher punishments etc

Muslims are still beating their wives forcing them to wear hijabs. Stoning and beheading people. Converting anyone they can and spreading terror.

That's because that is what their god wants them to do. It's literally written in their book.

Ok

 

[200sols]

Ok

What is your point?

 

[Raz]

There are some valid points raised against Islam, no denying that. Unfortunately, my own position on the matter has put me into conflict with others in RL, so it's not something I'd shy away from. That said, I wonder how many people here who are adamant that their interpretation of Islam i.e. the violent Breitbart version would speak so loudly against Judaism and Jews? (I think some would tbf). I mean specifically the Jewish religion and scripture, not as part of the Bible and NT...

In any case, and more on topic, it's clear these threads never get anywhere as there's only a handful of people who take a sensible, that is realistic, position. Taking the position that Islam is peaceful and terrorists are simply not Muslims isn't accurate, nor is the claim that Islam is all about beheadings, terrorism etc.

How about -

How do we engage with Muslim communities to ensure they take a stricter approach to addressing/combating any form of extremism?
What can organisations such as the MCB do to tackle extremism in communities and if they aren't doing anything do we need to replace them with a more inclusive organisation? (e.g. a council of Sufis, Ahmadis etc would be different to a mainstream Sunni one)

and so on...

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Ok

I truly believe it won't because of the fact it's an extreme religion. It won't go through a reform because you have countries like Saudi Arabia that hold major sway and control over their population.

You even have in Saudi Arabia the mosque police. Where when it's prayer time they send out vans to pick up males because women aren't allowed to go out on their own and take them to the mosque to pray.

If women were allowed to go out they would also be picked up most likely too.

Can you even understand how backwards and essentially it's rigorous brainwashing being programmed into them until they submit.

My family has been there on business and they had to produce a British passport for the mosque police to go away and pick someone else up.

There is no way I can see them reforming.

 

[Raz]

What is your point?

Muslims are still beating their wives forcing them to wear hijabs. Stoning and beheading people. Converting anyone they can and spreading terror.

That's because that is what their god wants them to do. It's literally written in their book.

God wants Muslims to beat their wives and force them to wear hijab, carry out stonings and behead people.

So the Muslims who don't do those things are simply bad Muslims for rejecting God's commands correct? The Muslims who do those things must be the real Muslims then?

 

[The Running Man]

Ok

Can there be a reformation in Islam?

Because the book itself is self fulfilling I.e it cannot be interpreted, its seen as the word of God it cannot be changed.

The only coming together could be between shiites and sunnies, but this wouldn't fix anything other than an internal dispute. It wouldn't change the fundamental blood and guts story of the book itself and would infact only embolden this position i feell..

 

[Raz]

I truly believe it won't because of the fact it's an extreme religion. It won't go through a reform because you have countries like Saudi Arabia that hold major sway and control over their population.

You even have in Saudi Arabia the mosque police. Where when it's prayer time they send out vans to pick up males because women aren't allowed to go out on their own and take them to the mosque to pray.

If women were allowed to go out they would also be picked up most likely too.

Can you even understand how backwards and essentially it's rigorous brainwashing being programmed into them until they submit.

My family has been there on business and they had to produce a British passport for the mosque police to go away and pick someone else up.

There is no way I can see them reforming.

Yeah, I've been to Saudi and yes it's strict but only when it comes to the masses and not the royal family. Imagine that, a religious police force established by the ruling elite to enforce laws that ultimately lead to obeying those in power. Hypocrisy is rife over there. I suspect, though I could be wrong, I have a better understanding and experience of different Muslim communities and sects than you.

I imagine the victims of the Crusades, which included the 'wrong type' of Christians, and the Inquisition probably thought the same. I do think they can have some kind of reformation, but these will be driven mostly by the more liberal/tolerant groups. The problem I think though is that once minority groups gain some kind of power they then lose their tolerance and become like the ones they opposed. Time will tell....

 

[Pudney]

Can there be a reformation in Islam?

Because the book itself is self fulfilling I.e it cannot be interpreted, its seen as the word of God it cannot be changed.

The only coming together could be between shiites and sunnies, but this wouldn't fix anything other than an internal dispute. It wouldn't change the fundamental blood and guts story of the book itself and would infact only embolden this position i feell..

There's already plenty of interpretations.

I particularly enjoyed the debate I once witnessed whether it's ok to eat at McDonald's if it weren't halal certified.

 

[Theophany]

I had a feeling what this thread would be like when I opened it and I must say I am not leaving it disappointed!

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

There are some valid points raised against Islam, no denying that. Unfortunately, my own position on the matter has put me into conflict with others in RL, so it's not something I'd shy away from. That said, I wonder how many people here who are adamant that their interpretation of Islam i.e. the violent Breitbart version would speak so loudly against Judaism and Jews? (I think some would tbf). I mean specifically the Jewish religion and scripture, not as part of the Bible and NT...

In any case, and more on topic, it's clear these threads never get anywhere as there's only a handful of people who take a sensible, that is realistic, position. Taking the position that Islam is peaceful and terrorists are simply not Muslims isn't accurate, nor is the claim that Islam is all about beheadings, terrorism etc.

How about -

How do we engage with Muslim communities to ensure they take a stricter approach to addressing/combating any form of extremism?
What can organisations such as the MCB do to tackle extremism in communities and if they aren't doing anything do we need to replace them with a more inclusive organisation? (e.g. a council of Sufis, Ahmadis etc would be different to a mainstream Sunni one)

and so on...

The scriptures of Christianity and Judaism are quite often referenced in these debates regarding their brutality (and rightly so), the difference is that in the modern world they aren't followed as such, whereas Islam most definitely still is, Hundreds of millions of people worldwide are forced under the threat of extreme violence and death to practice these abhorrent morals.

Could you find mass examples of Christian's and Jew's killing anyone who works on the Sabbath (exodus 35:2}? Or maybe an example of a Christian selling their daughters into slavery (exodus 21:7)?

There is no religion that doesn't have vast amounts of blood on their hand, but let's not pretend modern day Christianity or Judaism practise what is written in their scriptures to the letter under threat of death.

Oh I see you also mention the Crusades, of course the Muslim world is entirely innocent in that whole endeavour (*cough* invasion of Spain).

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Can't find the original documentary. But I think this is a copy.

The problem is the Koran. It is written by a deranged rapist and murderer and is believed to be the word of God because it's impossible to disprove unless you use logic which hardcore Muslims don't believe in.

No not all Muslims are bad. But those that follow the Koran to the letter are. Therefore you cannot say that Islam is a peaceful religion. Therefore yeah the good Muslims aren't real Muslims. I know plenty of good Muslims I used to go clubbing with them every weekend. However as we all know drinking is forbidden as is sex outside of marriage.

There was one time I was gobsmacked by one of my best Pakistani mates said. He was on his phone texting various girls to see who would be up for it after clubbing. He wasn't getting any bites and he hit out with even my cousin said we need to stop sexy timing. I was literally sat there frozen in shock, with nothing to say.

Yeah I know other religions did this in the past but majority of Muslims still marry their cousins today. My Iraqi mate from school married his first cousin too so it's not just a Pakistani thing.

Yeah a lot of second generation UK Muslims might not be doing it but it's rife in the backwards majority and first generations and still pretty rife in second generations here.

Good watch from Stacey Dooley. She's also from Luton like Tommy Robinson who opposes islamic extremists because of his upbringing in Luton surrounded by them.

 

[Raz]

The scriptures of Christianity and Judaism are quite often referenced in these debates regarding their brutality (and rightly so), the difference is that in the modern world they aren't followed as such, whereas Islam most definitely still is, Hundreds of millions of people worldwide are forced under the threat of extreme violence and death to practice these abhorrent morals.

Could you find mass examples of Christian's and Jew's killing anyone who works on the Sabbath (exodus 35:2}? Or maybe an example of a Christian selling their daughters into slavery (exodus 21:7)?

There is no religion that doesn't have vast amounts of blood on their hand, but let's not pretend modern day Christianity or Judaism practise what is written in their scriptures to the letter under threat of death.

Oh I see you also mention the Crusades, of course the Muslim world is entirely innocent in that whole endeavour (*cough* invasion of Spain).

What I was getting to in an earlier post and what you highlight here is that modern day Christians and Jews don't practise their religion (as they should be..?) but both are much more older than Islam and have come to their current, perhaps more generally liberal interpretations through centuries of war and suffering. Islam, in contrast, is 600 years younger than Christianity and has developed in a far different world than its predecessors (considering international politics, colonialism, the World Wars, the emergence of Wahabism and its impact on Muslim governance, politics and interpretations, the established of many Islamic terrorist groups in response to perceived or real Western aggression). These things do have an impact on a group's identity, attitudes and development and while Islam itself isn't and shouldn't be free from criticism just pointing to it and putting all of the blame on it isn't the right approach and is slightly deceptive.

I do think Islam will change for the better, but not today or tomorrow. I also think there's going to be a whole lot more bloodshed and atrocities, unfortunately, whether it's internally through Muslims fighting for some form of reformation or there's a forced change by others.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

God wants Muslims to beat their wives and force them to wear hijab, carry out stonings and behead people.

So the Muslims who don't do those things are simply bad Muslims for rejecting God's commands correct? The Muslims who do those things must be the real Muslims then?

If your God is telling you the below

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

That is the word of their god.

Then to be a real Muslim do you not have to follow god's word? Otherwise how else will you get to paradise and then be resurrected for the day if judgement to rule forever and inherit the earth?

Or are you telling me that to be a real Muslim you have to disown the Koran as being the word of god? If that is so then you aren't following Islam you may as well just be atheist and preach equality and fairness for all.

 

[Raz]

If your God is telling you the below

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

That is the word of their god.

Then to be a real Muslim do you not have to follow god's word? Otherwise how else will you get to paradise and then be resurrected for the day if judgement to rule forever and inherit the earth?

Or are you telling me that to be a real Muslim you have to disown the Koran as being the word of god? If that is so then you aren't following Islam you may as well just be atheist and preach equality and fairness for all.

That's a dishonest reading of what I said, particularly since you're aware of different interpretations and the context for certain verses. Anyone can simply throw verses around to make a standalone point..

2 - 190 Fight for the cause of God, those who fight you, but do not transgress, for God does not love the transgressors

So Muslims should fight those who fight them

2 - 256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become distinct from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut1 and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Oh, can't force people to convert.

See, Islam is peaceful.

Now of course that doesn't take into account context, scholarly rulings, hadith explanations and so forth...but throwing verses around seems to work for some.

 

[Pudney]

If your God is telling you the below

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

That is the word of their god.

Then to be a real Muslim do you not have to follow god's word? Otherwise how else will you get to paradise and then be resurrected for the day if judgement to rule forever and inherit the earth?

Or are you telling me that to be a real Muslim you have to disown the Koran as being the word of god? If that is so then you aren't following Islam you may as well just be atheist and preach equality and fairness for all.

Same passage, different interpretation:

But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them(1), capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(1) Footnote i.e., inside or outside the sanctuary of the Sacred House in Mecca.

Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Same passage, different interpretation:

But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them(1), capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(1) Footnote i.e., inside or outside the sanctuary of the Sacred House in Mecca.

Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

I don't understand how the word of God can be open to interpretation.

If the word of God is so ambiguous then that to me is proof alone that it isn't the word of God.

Plus the Koran was written by one man over many decades. In which there are many many contradictions.

Over those decades he became famous, grew in power, became a warlord after amassing many followers he turned into an army of god. So the later passages are all very barbaric but followers believe the later passages overrule the previous ones as it was the most recent word of God and earlier more tolerant passages are overruled.

With so many contradictions you can see how some follow the barbaric later passages and some follow the more acceptable earlier passages.

You would need to form a world islamic council which dictates to all Muslims what they should be doing and what they can and cannot do. Anyone who didn't want to follow this should be exiled and reported if they are promoting terror and intolerance.

Other religions have councils in place to update their religion for the modern world.

 

[stockhausen]

Please be aware that from now on there will be no trolling of religious threads tolerated. Your beliefs may differ from those that others hold but we do ask that you show them some tolerance and do not post deliberately disrespectful or inflammatory comments about other peoples beliefs. The issue of beliefs is a sensitive one for many people and this does not mean that there can be no criticism of religion but do think about how you present your arguments.

It is unfortunate that this needs to be spelled out but if this simple request for a bit of respect and tolerance towards others and their beliefs is not followed then suspensions and bans will follow. It would be preferable for all parties if these measures could be avoided so please show a bit of courtesy and tolerance towards others. Thank you.

Clearly this guidance on Speakers Corner should not be taken as expressing any objection to the intolerant, bigoted Usual Suspects starting and participating in yet another thread attacking the (admittedly often misguided) beliefs of everybody who happens to follow Islam, based on the actions of the occasional madman.

 

[Skunkworks]

What’s the point in arguing over passages and interpretations? None of that changes the sheer amount of undeniable out-group hostility on display for everyone to see.

 

[Dis86]

Same passage, different interpretation:

But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them(1), capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(1) Footnote i.e., inside or outside the sanctuary of the Sacred House in Mecca.

Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

There can't be different interpretations, it's the literal and infallible word of an all knowing divine being. He would know if people were going to interpret it wrongly and therefore would only say it in a way that could only ever be interpreted correctly.


Or it's complete rubbish written by people to control and enslave their subjects.