Belgian Grand Prix 2012, Spa-Francorchamps - Race 12/20

I like Grosjean, he seems like a nice guy but he deserves the ban.

He intentionally squeezed hamilton and got it wrong. For anyone doubting his intentions let me ask you this, why would he dive for the inside of a corner when he has an entire track to his left unless his intent was to squeeze hamilton ?

You have to take into account that he has been involved in 7 first lap accidents out of 12 races this season, that is not a good record to have.

He needs to calm down and i think this ban could end up being good for him.

Im at a loss as to how Maldonado hasn't recieved a ban yet though, he is and always has been a liability, think he's had something like 11 penalties this season out of 12 races.... utter madness.
 
how come it took him doing it how hamilton before people cared?

when he rammed schumacher off in the second corner of malaysia it was schumachers fault.
monaco apparently was schumachers fault for daring to try and overtake him down the huge void at the outside of the track.

schumachers bad luck was apparently created by himself according to people like skeeter.

yet hamilton is the unluckiest driver on the grid if his team get a wheel nut wrong :rolleyes:
 
The_Abyss said:
Oh, I bet he does. However, given the same situation he will react exactly the same again, as would many others. It is part of the instinct that makes him fantastic in other areas.
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Lifting wouldn't have diverted the crash, once it was apparent the renault wasn't stopping its move the wheels were already interlocked, it was the renaults rear wheel coming forward and hitting the mclarens front that caused the crash, easing off then would still have made the same crash. Unless you are suggestion that he should have backed off before then, which would make even starting the race pointless as you would have to wave everyone passed on the start before risking going into the first corner.
 
drunkenmaster said:
As for its not really Grosjeans fault because he's only focusing ahead of him, sorry, BS.
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Sorry but I didnt bother reading the rest of the post because never did I say this in my posts. I squarely blame Grosjean. What I AM saying is that Hamilton perhaps should have taken into consideration the eraticness/unpredictability of this relatively "unknown" driver on the grid and drive more conservatively around them as to avoid the incident. Yes there wasnt much more room over the right side, but there certainly was a good half a car width I would say... but perhaps it may have not been enough since Grosjean may have continued to veer.... equally so he may have realised "woah thats far enough" and given Hamiltin the the absolute minimum width...

This is all what ifs.... and hindsight is wonderful :)

Or are you refering to another member who made this comment about not being Grosjeans fault?
 
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sunama said:
That's what I think, too.
In all my time watching F1, with the exception of MSc, I really can't say that I have seen a better driver than Alonso.

In 2010, the guy almost won the title against the all-conquering RedBull.
In 2012, in the 3rd best car on the grid, he is leading the title race. NOBODY is supposed to be able to do this...but Alonso IS doing it. And its not like the RBR and McLaren cars are being driven by bad drivers - 3 of those drivers are World Champions, including the reigning World Champion!

I remember when Senna (who many rate as the best driver, ever) had the 2nd best car in F1 (in 92 and 93) - even he was unable to lead the Williams cars in the title race.

IMO, MSc in his absolute prime is the only driver who is directly comparable with Alonso.

If you are young driver, you may be able to learn a thing or 2 by being in the same team as Alonso, but if that young driver gets humiliated, it could effectively end his career as a front runner.
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Alonso is the best driver at the moment, but don't forget this season that there have been loads of different winners so although he is out driving the car, it is being consistent that is getting him ahead in the WDC rather than winning every race for example.
 
Cavallino said:
Sorry but I didnt bother reading the rest of the post because never did I say this in my posts. I squarely blame Grosjean. What I AM saying is that Hamilton perhaps should have taken into consideration the eraticness/unpredictability of this relatively "unknown" driver on the grid and drive more conservatively around them as to avoid the incident.
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This same argument was made when Maldonado took Hamilton out in Valencia and I don't buy it, especially yesterday when he was driving in a straight line with nowhere else to go.

These guys are the best drivers in the *best* tier of motorsport. Rookie or otherwise, they should have more sense.

DC made a great point yesterday about the Playstation generation not respecting other cars/drivers because the safety factor has improved so much and I think there's an element of truth to it.

Luckily for Grosjean, he's learning his lesson with a one race ban and not the death of another driver on his shoulders.
 
Duke said:
it is being consistent that is getting him ahead in the WDC rather than winning every race for example.
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Exactly. Drivers want to win races simply because they are racers, but I think Alonso is one of those drivers who has come to realise that F1 today rewards drivers (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective) for driving more conservatively and thinking about the long game (i.e. the WDC).

Have you noticed how in some races Alonso is ecstatic to have finished in certain positions? Because he realistically knows where to expect to finish a races, and if he finishes above "his original expectation" he is over the moon about it. Be it 1st or 5th.

This goes against the racers mantra so to speak. Back in the day with the 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system, a race win really was much more weighty...
 
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ban was harsh since it was a stupid mistake/misjudgement - many other drivers at start have cut across the track agressively (too many examples to even list) it is quite common in fact. wasn't intentional just part of the chaos at the first corner in Spa. it happens quite a lot at Spa in many different categories.

think a 10 place grid drop would have been enough. i am not a Grosjean fan and would like to see more consistency in penalties. Maldonado and Hamilton have caused many accidents which seemed intentional/reckless.

my 2 cents

glad Button won. bit dissapointed for Kimi, but he was lucky to get 3rd in the end tbh - hoepfully he will one before the end of the season
 
Think the ban is fair. That accident could have took someones head off. Alonso was very lucky that Lotus flying over his nose wasn't a foot closer to him.

Grosjean just kinda drove into Hamilton without any concern, madness.
 
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This is where its grey for me...
Is he being penalised for nearly causing a fatality? Or because of the massive pileup? Or what exactly?
I would say Grosjeans move was stupid, but not as stupid as some of the moves we have seen earlier in the year.

Surely the point of the ban is to encourage more safer driving, and by that token, surely Maldonado must be the lead candidate for a ban this season (13 infringements in 12 races was it?).

Grosjean was at fault and I am not saying the ban is right or wrong, just questioning the context in which its being applied.
 
lunarwolf said:
think a 10 place grid drop would have been enough. i am not a Grosjean fan and would like to see more consistency in penalties. Maldonado and Hamilton have caused many accidents which seemed intentional/reckless.
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If i was Grosjean i wouldn't want a 10 grid penalty. Monza ban is more than fair. I'd call that lucky.

Now Senna, sorry i mean Maldonado is definatly due a 10 grid drop. What an idiot with the false start. Really dont understand why his team isnt doing anything about this. Oh and the bad boy imagine in F1, is soooo 5 years ago. Not clever at all.
 
MooMoo444 said:
The ban is for dangerous driving, what happened as a result of the accident is insignificant, although if someone had been injured the stewards may have been a little more strict.
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Yes but thats exactly it, I am sure there have been instances of more blatantly reckless driving by other drivers this season

What is the "dangerous" aspect? The fact that it caused a massive pileup? Or the "stupidity" of the move?
 
Cavallino said:
Exactly. Drivers want to win races simply because they are racers, but I think Alonso is one of those drivers who has come to realise that F1 today rewards drivers (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective) for driving more conservatively and thinking about the long game (i.e. the WDC).

Have you noticed how in some races Alonso is ecstatic to have finished in certain positions? Because he realistically knows where to expect to finish a races, and if he finishes above "his original expectation" he is over the moon about it. Be it 1st or 5th.

This goes against the racers mantra so to speak. Back in the day with the 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system, a race win really was much more weighty...
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Under the 10-6 points the current standings would be...

Alonso 52
Vettel 40
Webber 36
Hamilton 34
Kimi 34
Button 33
Rosberg 20
Grosjean 19
Perez 11
Mald 10
Massa 6
Kobi 6
Hulk 5
MSC 5
Diresta 1
Senna 1

So actually in the old system Alonsos gap would be slightly better because he has more than a race win lead which he currently doesn't have. In fact the top 6 is not vastly different in both systems. The only person to really lose would be kimi who would tie with Hamilton on the old points but be ahead now.

F1 has always been about consistency it's nothing new. People just seem to remember people winning titles after knocking up 9 race wins on the old system and thinking it heavily rewarded winning instead of consistency. The cars are much closer together these days with greater reliability which is making people think the new system is making people drive differently.
 
"I did a mistake and I misjudged the gap with Lewis. I was sure I was in front of him. So a small mistake made a big incident.

"I didn't change my line, I went from left to right. I was not really wanting to put anyone in the wall - I'm not here to stop the race in the first corner. I'm very, very sorry and I'm glad that nobody is hurt.

"But I have to say it is a very, very hard decision to hear."

Grosjean, who has been involved in five early-race incidents this year, said he was more angry with himself than with the penalty, but added that the accidents were not all caused by over-aggression.

"I did too many," he said. "If there is more than one then that is too many, I agree. But as I say it is not always the same. It's not over-aggressive by braking 200 metres too late, it's just most of the time misjudgement of the space I have in front or the space I have on the side.

"It's true that we don't see much in the mirrors and stuff like that and it goes very quick at the start.

"I was to be honest 100 per cent sure I was in front of Lewis but I was not so I need to rethink about my view of the car.

"I am the most angry at myself to have misjudged the gap with Lewis's car."

Grosjean said that his focus now was on analysing what led to the ban and to ensure that the rest of the season continues without error, adding that he hoped it would not affect his chances of keeping his drive with Lotus in 2012.

"It is too much. I know that. Some are not my fault, but I will analyse that and I will try to not repeat it in the seven last races," he said.

"For sure I don't want to do any more [crashes] by the end of the season. So I will work, I will analyse as much as I can to try and avoid those. Some were misfortune, some were my mistake but now it is time to finish that."
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So, it occurs to me...

If Webber were to win the championship this year, and schuey went to ferrari, and villenerd came out of retirement and replaced groansean.. we'd be able to have the top four teams, full of world champions...


this random thought of the day, brought to you by an overdoes of caffiene..
 
I'm finding it hard to form a solid opinion on the Grosjean penalty, mainly because of the complete randomness of all the stewards penalties this year.

I can't decide if its harsh compared to what others have got, or if its bang on and other have got off lightly.

Its no worse than a few of Maldonado's individual incidents, and definitely well behind the culmination of all of them.

Maybe it marks the turning of a corner, and Maldonado's next incident will get him a race ban?
 
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