Belgian Grand Prix 2012, Spa-Francorchamps - Race 12/20

[Greboth]

That is indeed a random thought of the day, it would be an awesome headline but, as much as I would like him too, I don't think Webber will win the WDC and I hope to god Villeneuve doesn't come back.

On the subject of fat John's penalty I do think it was a little harsh. Yes the resulting pile up was bad and it could have been much worse. I also agree that why the hell was he moving over there in the first place - the only conclusion I have come to he was trying to block of Hamilton from sticking it down the inside into T1. Which was pointless as even if Hamilton got ahead he would have been a sitting duck come lap 2 when DRS is activated. However there has been equally as bad moves in the past, however as that only resulted in a wheel tap or maybe a broken front wing then they weren't punished. However just because this time they clipped wheels throwing the cars into the air then he has been banned for one race. I think he should be punished but that is too harsh IMHO.

 

[dannyjo22]

It's driver standards they need to raise. Lots of drivers run over towards another and either expect them to yield or push them off, the other driver leaves the circuit rather than have an accident. Yesterday Hamilton had no where to go or wouldn't yield.

I'd race ban everyone now that decides to do the same, push a driver to the extent that he can't keep 4 wheels on the track without causing an accident.

It is though no different to Vettel jinking in the direction of Webber when he didn't yield or the countless incidents similar we have seen over the last 20 years. I'd give Grosjean a bit more slack because there is far more going on at the start than when Vettel pointed his car at webber and expected him to jump out of the way.

 

[Skillmister]

Maybe it marks the turning of a corner, and Maldonado's next incident will get him a race ban?

We can only hope

 

[deuse]

Grosjean has said it was his fault so why is everyone still going on about it?

Monza next week yehhhhh Lewis will win it easy

 

[Skeeter]

For me the confusion comes from deliberate and accidental actions. I do not belive that Grosjean deliberately drove into Hamilton. He was careless and either missjudged the gap, or simply wasn't looking and didn't know he was there. It makes the move careless rather than reckless.

Whereas we have 2 incidents where Maldonado has deliberately driven into someone (Spa 2011 and Monaco 2012) which got lesser penalties. They didn't cause anywhere near as big an accident, but to me thats not the point. Its the attitude of the driver. You could also look at Schumachers move on Barrichello at Hungary too. Schumacher new exactly where Barrichello was and knew exactly what he was doing when he squeezed him wide.

Its a slighly concerning trend that you can deliberately cause a minor accident and get away lighter than a guy who accidentally caused a large accident.

 

[Skeeter]

Grosjean has said it was his fault so why is everyone still going on about it?

Nobody since the replay was (eventually) shown during the race has said any different?

Of course it was Grosjeans fault, but was it worse than any other incident that happened in the last few years (I can't remember the last time a driver was banned for a race for their own on track actions)?

 

[Greboth]

IIRC the last drive to get banned for on track was Schumacher, I can't think of anyone since then.

Edit: According to F1 fanatic it was Schumacher in 1994.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/09/03/2012-belgian-grand-prix-stats-facts/

Grosjean has said it was his fault so why is everyone still going on about it?

Monza next week yehhhhh Lewis will win it easy

The discussion isn't who to blame, it is whether the punishment fits the crime. I think Skeeter said it perfectly a couple posts up.

 

[MooMoo444]

I hope the FIA do set a precedent with this. As the cars have gotten more sturdy over the years, a few certain drivers have shown they are not against using their car as a ram. I don't need to name them, we all know who

 

[FrankJH]

Grosjean has said it was his fault so why is everyone still going on about it?

Monza next week yehhhhh Lewis will win it easy

Except for the fact that for the last two seasons its been JB challanging for the win against Alonso (2010) and Vettel (2011) if I recall correctly

 

[Skeeter]

Is it really as far back as 1994! Wow.

So that means that Grosjeans move at the start of the Belgium GP 2012 was the most serious case of a driver causing an incident in the last 18 years.

Hmm...

 

[Mr Men]

Massa was banned for a race in 2001/2, Irvine and Mika are other 2 that come to mind

 

[FrankJH]

Whereas we have 2 incidents where Maldonado has deliberately driven into someone (Spa 2011 and Monaco 2012) which got lesser penalties. They didn't cause anywhere near as big an accident, but to me thats not the point. Its the attitude of the driver. You could also look at Schumachers move on Barrichello at Hungary too. Schumacher new exactly where Barrichello was and knew exactly what he was doing when he squeezed him wide.

to me that is the whole point

Its not so much about "how big the accident" as you can have huge accidents that dont actually put any driver in danger - but imo yesterday there were at least two people in a lot of danger , whether grosjean was one of them or not doesnt matter, a car flying through the air and marginally missing another driver's head always has to have the maximum punishment - especially during the start, where EVERYONE should drive with added care and attention (even though they often dont)

Maldonado was never going to cause Hamilton any harm at all at Monaco (apart from taking him out of the race)


It is maybe harsh, but if it potentially allows more thought from everyone in the next few races , there is no lasting loss (ok Grosjean will never get to race Monza 2012, but this is tiny in the great scheme of things)

 

[dannyjo22]

IIRC the last drive to get banned for on track was Schumacher, I can't think of anyone since then.

Edit: According to F1 fanatic it was Schumacher in 1994.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/09/03/2012-belgian-grand-prix-stats-facts/.

Isn't the last ban JV in 97. He was banned for suzuka after failing to slow for yellow flags. He raced under appeal and when the plot to slow the grid so MS was passed by the mclarens failed decided to forfeit the race anyway.

 

[Mr Men]

Isn't the last ban JV in 97. He was banned for suzuka after failing to slow for yellow flags. He raced under appeal and when the plot to slow the grid so MS was passed by the mclarens failed decided to forfeit the race anyway.

Yep he was banned but raced under appeal, then MS made him look a tool and they withdrew their appeal. MS was ahead of JV and slowed him down and Irvine overtook both of them IIRC

 

[Skeeter]

Maldonado was never going to cause Hamilton any harm at all at Monaco (apart from taking him out of the race)

The Monaco incident I was referring too was Maldonado driving into Perez this year on purpose. Slow speed and minor damage, but it was very clearly a deliberate move.

To me a deliberate action is far more serious than a silly yet accidental one, regardless of the size of the accident it then causes.

Do you agree that Grosjeans move is the most serious incident of its type for almost 20 years?

 

[FrankJH]

Under the 10-6 points the current standings would be...

Alonso 52
Vettel 40
Webber 36
Hamilton 34
Kimi 34
Button 33
Rosberg 20
Grosjean 19
Perez 11
Mald 10
Massa 6
Kobi 6
Hulk 5
MSC 5
Diresta 1
Senna 1

So actually in the old system Alonsos gap would be slightly better because he has more than a race win lead which he currently doesn't have. In fact the top 6 is not vastly different in both systems. The only person to really lose would be kimi who would tie with Hamilton on the old points but be ahead now.
.

JB has lost out as well

(for example) two further race wins (on the old points) would get him ahead of Alonso - on the new points he would need nearly 3

Just one example

As has been said many times before the new system of points really penalizes those who score big but infrequently - against those with more consistancy (who it benefits, as it did last year with JB)

 

[FrankJH]

The Monaco incident I was referring too was Maldonado driving into Perez this year on purpose. Slow speed and minor damage, but it was very clearly a deliberate move.

To me a deliberate action is far more serious than a silly yet accidental one, regardless of the size of the accident it then causes.

Do you agree that Grosjeans move is the most serious incident of its type for almost 20 years?

Oh ok, - to be honest I cant remember that Maldonado one (any different from the Hamilton /Massa at Lowes hairpin? that wasnt dangerous at all, but Hamilton had no chance to get round the corner without connecting with Massa -no biggie with me at all)

Even without the replays yesterday, Spa 98 at the start - maybe accidental, cant actually remember what caused it that year, but while there was a lot of wreckage yesterday, '98 seemed a lot more dangerous for more drivers than yesterday

(a lot of people were taken out yesterday without any real harm ever seemingly likely apart from Grosjean flying through the air and Alonso's near head miss)

 

[Skeeter]

It was in practice I think, Maldonado got annoyed so just swerved into Perez on purpose. Neither were on a hot lap, it was at the slow corner before the tunnel. It was quite similar to him swerving into Hamilton at Spa in Qualifying in 2011.

Its just that when you look at the punishment as a gauge of the severity of the incident, calling Grosjeans move the worst in 18 years seems rather harsh.

 

[Duke]

Maldonando season of fail..

[b]Race 	  	Penalty 	 	 	Infringement[/b]
Bahrain	 	5 place grid drop 	 	Gearbox change
Monaco 	 	10 place grid drop 	 	Collision with Perez in practice
Monaco	 	5 place grid drop 	 	Gearbox change
Canadian 	5 place grid drop 	 	Gearbox change
European 	20-seconds added to race time 	Collision with Hamilton
Hungarian 	Drive-through 	 	 	Collision with Di Resta
Belgian 	3 place grid drop 	 	Impending Hulkenberg in qually
Belgian 	5 place grid drop for next GP	Jump start
Belgian 	5 place grid drop for next GP	Causing a collision with Glock

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/09/03/2012-belgian-grand-prix-stats-facts/

 

[EddScott]

Maldonados actions are deliberate. Grosjean made a mistake. Not too sure a race ban is fair in the context of the punishment handed to Maldonado - just because what he has done hasn't caused a serious accident.