Bikers....

[iaind]

actually i rode quickly but I would NEVER put someone at risk by doing what you said.
Admittedly I was quicker than most hence my racing I imagine but one thing I do remember from training is defensive riding. i.e. if he can pull out assume he will.

Think thats part of the problem in this thread is the differing perceptions of what people mean by bad riding.

I think the people who get defensive or try to say "if you have never ridden a bike you dont know" are the ones to worry about. Lack of experience on a bike doesnt mean lack of experience on the roads

 

[SKILL]

I think Pie's post was a perfect example of the problem with a lot of bikers - they make excuses for dangerous driving.

I disagree, without having ridden a bike it's hard to understand just what they're like, and what is 'safe' with them.

There is no point hanging back before an overtake, as you neither need the view (you can usually see over the car, which also allows you to see reasons for the car in front to slow down as well) or need the space to build up speed.

Weaving through traffic is a no-no, but he didn't mention that.

And speeding can be safe, just as it can be reckless, it's not a fine line...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are putting forward the arguments as someone biased against bikes being safe, PieEater is putting forward the arguments with a bias towards bikes being safe, but at the same time he actually has experience of riding bikes...

 

[SKILL]

Think thats part of the problem in this thread is the differing perceptions of what people mean by bad riding.

I think the people who get defensive or try to say "if you have never ridden a bike you dont know" are the ones to worry about. Lack of experience on a bike doesnt mean lack of experience on the roads

heh, just as I was using that argument

It's kinda true though, yes there are some incidents where it's obvious that it's reckless, but there are probably many others where they aren't even going close to the limits of what the bike can do, are being perfectly safe, but to car drivers might appear to be completely reckless...

 

[iaind]

Its understandable that a lot of things can seem reckless because of the extra speed, even the extra noise can make it be percieved as being worse!

But everything I've been thinking of or mentioned has been very clear cut.

With regards to overtaking, the positions for a clear view are obviously different and hanging back is probably unecessary on a bike, but I maintain that it's never acceptable to tailgate.

Speeding will always be a contentious subject. I'm definitely not of the view that you should never exceed 70mph on a motorway, for example, I'll quite happily sit at 80. If I get caught, I'll accept I was in the wrong rather than getting p*ssy about speed cameras like a lot of people. What I will say, is that there are a lot more bikers who will seriously exceed the limit than car drivers. A car driver might do 40 in a 30 and 80 in a 70, but I've seen a lot of bikers doing 60 in a 30 and well over a ton in a 70.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you dont need experience of bikes to know what is reckless. If you had never driven a car and you were walking down the street and a car passed you, clearly exceeding the speed limit, you'd be pretty annoyed to be told you dont know what is reckless because you've never driven a car

 

[SKILL]

Its understandable that a lot of things can seem reckless because of the extra speed, even the extra noise can make it be percieved as being worse!

But everything I've been thinking of or mentioned has been very clear cut.

With regards to overtaking, the positions for a clear view are obviously different and hanging back is probably unecessary on a bike, but I maintain that it's never acceptable to tailgate.

Depends what you'd call tailgating, for me it's driving/riding very close, when there is no chance of getting past, in the hope to get the person in front to speed up. When riding the bike if I'm on a bit of road where it is possible to overtake but I'm just waiting for a gap in traffic I will get closer to the car in front, if however there is no chance of me overtaking I'll hang back, shift up the 6th and relax, until I get a chance to overtake.

Speeding will always be a contentious subject. I'm definitely not of the view that you should never exceed 70mph on a motorway, for example, I'll quite happily sit at 80. If I get caught, I'll accept I was in the wrong rather than getting p*ssy about speed cameras like a lot of people. What I will say, is that there are a lot more bikers who will seriously exceed the limit than car drivers. A car driver might do 40 in a 30 and 80 in a 70, but I've seen a lot of bikers doing 60 in a 30 and well over a ton in a 70.

I've seen a lot of car drivers do over a ton in a 70 (and I don't think that's unsafe in the slightest btw, car or bike), 60 in a 30 can be very stupid assuming the 30 (like most) is a 30 due to pedestrians, but then I've seen plenty of cars doing 50/60 in 30's, and less bikes doing that tbh.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you dont need experience of bikes to know what is reckless. If you had never driven a car and you were walking down the street and a car passed you, clearly exceeding the speed limit, you'd be pretty annoyed to be told you dont know what is reckless because you've never driven a car

No, you don't need experience of bikes for some, maybe even most cases, but there are plenty of things that you can see bikes doing that might be classed as reckless when they simply aren't...

 

[iaind]

In my view tailgating is being too close to stop if need be. I know bikes can stop a lot quicker than cars, but I've had bikes behind me so close that even thinking distance would put them into my boot if I had to stop suddenly. Getting closer for the purposes of overtaking is fine, if thats the safest way to overtake on a bike, but I would expect a car length apart....

I personally have seen more bikers going "way over" the speed limit, but everyone's experiences will be different I guess.

I appreciate what you're saying about the perception of things being reckless and I do agree. To a lesser extent the same thing could be said about cars - if you're not actually in the driving seat, you dont know for sure what the situation was

 

[Dano]

In my view tailgating is being too close to stop if need be. I know bikes can stop a lot quicker than cars, but I've had bikes behind me so close that even thinking distance would put them into my boot if I had to stop suddenly. Getting closer for the purposes of overtaking is fine, if thats the safest way to overtake on a bike, but I would expect a car length apart....

It's not and never will be the safest way to overtake, pure impatience or a lack of driving knowledge leads to people tailgating in regards to wanting to overtake.

There are as many idiots in cars, they just don't have the power or size advantage to take as many obvious risks as the idiots on bikes.

 

[doran1801]

180mph on a bike may seem fast to a driver but not to the pilot flying the bike

sorry meant to say rider

 

[Nebzor]

I, by your definition, tailgate while waiting for the gap in traffic up ahead on a straight road.

This is not such a problem on a bike, as if need be you would be able to go between the two lanes of traffic if the driver in front suddenly stops. However, a car would simply plough into the back of you/oncoming traffic.

 

[al123]

Quite a few of you talk about going over 70 mph.

I havent passed my car test, so am not totally aware of the full highway code. From what I know though, dual carriage way speed limits are 70mph. So, can I ask where you are doing these high speeds and is it legal?

I'm not having a go...I'm just curious.

This may be of some help to you:

In the ten years from 1997, the percentage of vehicles exceeding the 30 mph speed limit in free flow
conditions has dropped for every vehicle type. The most significant decrease was for cars. In 1997,
70 per cent of cars travelled at speeds in excess of the limit; by 2007, this dropped to less than half.

On motorways in 2007, 54 per cent of cars exceeded the 70 mph speed limit. In addition, 18 per cent
of cars were recorded as travelling at 80 mph or faster.

Very few heavy goods vehicles exceeded their speed limit of 60 mph on motorways. However, over
82 per cent of them exceeded the 50 mph speed limit on dual carriageway non-built-up roads and
nearly three-quarters exceeded the 40 mph limit on single carriageway non-built-up roads.

In 2007, over half of all motorcycles travelled faster than the 30 mph speed limit in built-up areas. Of
these, nearly half (or a quarter of the total) exceeded the speed limit by 5 mph or higher.

Its taken from: Department for Transport - Road Statistics 2007

 

[helpimcrap]

having crashed numerous times racing and at speeds of 160mph+ there is a big difference between bike riders and car drivers. i'm talking about the bike only and car only brigade. it is one of my beliefs that being a rider makes you a more aware car driver and you should at least have a bike license before a car one. bike riders in general make better car drivers as they don't push the boundaries so much, time isn't an issue etc.

 

[jon.bda]

there is a big difference between bike riders and car drivers. i'm talking about the bike only and car only brigade. it is one of my beliefs that being a rider makes you a more aware car driver and you should at least have a bike license before a car one. bike riders in general make better car drivers as they don't push the boundaries so much, time isn't an issue etc.

Agreed, and wasn't this proven somewhere?. Bike riders being much more aware of road conditions etc...

 

[Fireskull]

Yea cant remember where though...
But yea on a bike you have to be more aware of everything around you and the road conditions so it should stay with you in the car I know it does for me, follow plenty of people for miles and never see them once shoulder check and a lot hardly check their interior mirror lol, im always glancing in mine, OCD maybe?

 

[iaind]

I, by your definition, tailgate while waiting for the gap in traffic up ahead on a straight road.

This is not such a problem on a bike, as if need be you would be able to go between the two lanes of traffic if the driver in front suddenly stops. However, a car would simply plough into the back of you/oncoming traffic.

No you couldnt - thinking distance is the same, whether you're swerving or braking

 

[Fireskull]

Thinking distance is less for bikers, it has to be theres no tin car around to protect us, either react instantly or its going to hurt
Were superhuman didnt you know....

 

[Mil17B]

No you couldnt - thinking distance is the same, whether you're swerving or braking

Not saying it is right to tail gate but being on a bike defintley makes you more alert, having more outside noises, the feeling of the wind against you and a higher up more complete view and the lack of a ton and a half of metal around you.

 

[sunama]

Not saying it is right to tail gate but being on a bike defintley makes you more alert, having more outside noises, the feeling of the wind against you and a higher up more complete view and the lack of a ton and a half of metal around you.

I would agree with this 100%.

I've driven a train at 95mph and because of the lack of noise/wind etc, it hardly feels as if you are going so fast. It lulls you into a false sense of security.

On the other hand, when I ride a motorbike or even a bicycle, I can actually "feel" the speed. This forces me to be more careful.

 

[iaind]

I completely understand that being on a bike in the open would make you more alert, but the human brain can only respond so quickly.

A 2 foot gap at 80mph gives you 0.017s to respond, you cant even blink that quickly.

 

[Mil17B]

I completely understand that being on a bike in the open would make you more alert, but the human brain can only respond so quickly.

A 2 foot gap at 80mph gives you 0.017s to respond, you cant even blink that quickly.

I don't know why I am writing this as I strongly despise tailgating, but I do believe most bikers that tail gate a car is because the car pulls out on them, doesn't check in their mirrors to move over, stays in the outside lane going 70mph because thats the limit so no one should go faster, ect.

Anyway, a car could not stop instantly so in all likelyhood there is a far larger time than 0.017s from when a cars brake lights show to a collision. Also I do believe that tail gating practise is to go up to them with high beam on, then close the throttle when close. Essentially the art of tailgating on a bike can be relatively safe and its more of a push to get a move on/did you see me when you pulled out stunt.

I think the ultimate line in this thread should be that a lot of people in this world are idiots, especially on the roads; whether this be use of speed, undertaking, tailgating, lack of respect for other users and road conditions and observation, but being on a bike gives you more opportunity to be an idiot. And that peoples opinions of idiotic behaviour are different, and none is definitive.

 

[Nebzor]

No you couldnt - thinking distance is the same, whether you're swerving or braking

Err, I think you're confusing tailgating in a preparing to overtake sense with having your tyre on someone's rear bumper.

I think I am capable of taking care of my own road safety better than someone on the internet.