Billion 7800N -early thoughts

[mikeo]

But any how that aside it will work much better with the 8dbi antennas.

I'll be interested to hear if they do provide any real benefit. If so, that will be my next purchase, as a couple of rooms upstairs get a marginal signal. So any improvement would be a God send.

Mines not come yet (tracking says "on the way").

 

[No-One]

Bit of an update but the background story first. Last year my exchange was upgraded to 21CN and "upto 20 meg" services became available. At the time I was using a 7 year old netgear dg834g v2. As I understand the v2 has a texas instruments ADSL chipset. I contacted my ISP (Zen) and requested the upgrade and got a 14 meg connection... That was until I turned my plasma tv on. The instant I did, all throughput stopped. Obviously this would have presented a large problem for using xbox live. The only solution was to replace the tv (not financially viable) or downgrade back to 8 meg. I went for the downgrade option. A few weeks later I disconnected the ring wire at the master socket and at all extentions which gave a slight improvement in line stats although I was already getting a maximum 8 meg sync.

Fast forward to February 2012. I got a 7800N. I figured even if it still wouldn't work with the faster services while using my tv, at least I'd gain from N wifi speeds and will have the option to use it as a wifi router when fibre or whatever becomes available.

This morning I once again got put onto a 20 meg service and have found it's working perfectly when the tv is on. If this is due to the newer router, tidying up with internal phone wiring or a combination of both I can't be too sure. But I'm getting faster speeds to I'm chuffed!

 

[pyropetepete]

Nice one, but you wont get 24dbi sorry antenna gain doesn't work like that.
And the 3 antennas are used so you have full duplex on the transmit and receive channels. Hence how you get to the 300mbps transfer rate. its 2 channels of 150mbps working together.

But the main thing is that the 8dbi antennas are far better than the 2dbi antennas because in REAL world terms the 2dbi antennas do not have any gain as dBi stands for decibel gain of an ISOTROPIC RADIATOR this is a mathematically perfect antenna and these unfortunately do not exist in the real world. a 2dbi antenna actually has loss not gain because its real figure is -0.85dBd. This is the figure of the real antenna, so the 8dbi antennas really have 5.86dBd that's real gain. This is because dBd is gain above a reference dipole antenna of 0dB gain.

But any how that aside it will work much better with the 8dbi antennas.

Dude you know way more than me, i wana increase it more, ideas?>

 

[tezabeza]

Just an update with the new Billion 7800n now in place and the 8dbi antennas fitted have increased the signal in my son's bedroom from a single bar to 3 which I had an educated guess at an increase of signal of 2 possibly 3 bars but this is with the standard antennas on the WiFi card on his PC, which I will be replacing with a home made dual 15dbi double quad antennas this will take it to max 5 bars.

I know this as its what I am using in my RF Workshop to get internet access for the PC in there which I have just installed a TP-Link 300mbps card and made one today in about 1 hour went from 1 bar with the supplied antennas to MAXXXed out signal with the home made antennas.

Unfortunately I don't have a website to upload pictures to if I had I would upload them and link them on here for you to see.

 

[pyropetepete]

Just an update with the new Billion 7800n now in place and the 8dbi antennas fitted have increased the signal in my son's bedroom from a single bar to 3 which I had an educated guess at an increase of signal of 2 possibly 3 bars but this is with the standard antennas on the WiFi card on his PC, which I will be replacing with a home made dual 15dbi double quad antennas this will take it to max 5 bars.

I know this as its what I am using in my RF Workshop to get internet access for the PC in there which I have just installed a TP-Link 300mbps card and made one today in about 1 hour went from 1 bar with the supplied antennas to MAXXXed out signal with the home made antennas.

Unfortunately I don't have a website to upload pictures to if I had I would upload them and link them on here for you to see.

http://postimage.org/

 

[mikeo]

Just an initial update on my 7800N.

- Initial impressions are that it's well built and certainly well ventilated. No pretty thing, but hey... it's a modem/router.

- Installation pretty straight forward. But most are anyway (assuming the user has more than a couple of brain cells )

- Sync was slightly higher than my speedtouch 585v6 (IE. 11Mbps compared to 10.5Mbps). But that could I suppose be the time of day it was re-sync'd!

- Wireless cover (old house with VERY thick wall) appears only to be marginally better than the speedtouch. Though it now looks like my Kindle might just hold a wireless link upstairs in far bedroom now. Think I'll order up those new Antenna.

- I'm not that impressed with the GUI for the router. Layout is a bit haphazard (to my eyes at least) and WHERE WHERE WHERE is the stats page showing at least the basic line errors (IE. error secs, HEC etc.)???????
I think this is a MAJOR mistake on what is really an enthusiasts router.
Fair enough you can get everything via an app. like RouterStats via Telnet but I would still like to see at least some basic error stats in the Routers GUI.

Think I'll run with this router for a couple of days and see what some decent Antenna do for the wireless reception.

Mind you... current experience not helped by the fact I've only just moved over from ADSL max to ADSL2+ and the DSLAM is still messing about. Think it's now dropped my downward SNR target to 3dB (for a very small speed increase) and with Interleaving off as well... not sure my line can support it, as loads of errors being logged, especially on the downward side. May have to give the ISP a phone if connection doesn't stay stable. Rather have stability than a low PING myself (not really an OL gamer).

TBC....

 

[tezabeza]

http://postimage.org/

Cheers her goes hope they work Pete,





Hope the pictures give you an Idea as to what can be made for very little effort as long as you have the bits and as this is what I do for a living then I had the wire, coax, connectors, and tools to make this in no time at all really. Joys of being a RF Technogeek LoL

Click the pics for a larger image.

Cheers,

Tezabeza

 

[tezabeza]

Just a quick update,

Solid connection at full signal strength and 3.0-3.5Mbps downloads so well please with the new Billion 7800n with 8dbi antennas.

Also made a second one of the above Dual Quad antennas for the lads PC in his bedroom. Gone from a 3 bar signal to MAX 5 bars. See post of Homemade antenna in previous post on here.

Tested the set up with the standard antennas fitted to the Billion and as predicted makes about 3 bars difference with the lads PC but only 1 bar difference with the workshop PC. But the lads PC has a lot more to get through to "SEE" the router, floor boards, 2 rather thick brick walls as well. Were the workshop PC the antenna only has a 4 inch thick wooden frame wall with rock-wool insulation to get through and then the usual house wall.

But all in all the better the antenna the better the signal range because the gain of the antennas make up for the signal path loss through the buildings. You will be surprised how much a brick/stone wall attenuates the signal!!!

Cheers.

 

[mikeo]

Just a quick update,

Solid connection at full signal strength and 3.0-3.5Mbps downloads so well please with the new Billion 7800n with 8dbi antennas.

Also made a second one of the above Dual Quad antennas for the lads PC in his bedroom. Gone from a 3 bar signal to MAX 5 bars. See post of Homemade antenna in previous post on here.

Tested the set up with the standard antennas fitted to the Billion and as predicted makes about 3 bars difference with the lads PC but only 1 bar difference with the workshop PC. But the lads PC has a lot more to get through to "SEE" the router, floor boards, 2 rather thick brick walls as well. Were the workshop PC the antenna only has a 4 inch thick wooden frame wall with rock-wool insulation to get through and then the usual house wall.

But all in all the better the antenna the better the signal range because the gain of the antennas make up for the signal path loss through the buildings. You will be surprised how much a brick/stone wall attenuates the signal!!!

Cheers.

Good news.

Ordered 3 of the antenna yesterday. Delivery not till Monday though! So much for "A Prime" delivery (can't obviously mention the Retailer).

My line seems to be holding up OK with the 7800N. Though quite a few errors being reported over just a couple of days! Strangely doesn't appear to effect my true download speed though. SNRM being reported a bit lower than by the Speedtouch router though! Might just be the difference in reporting by the different routers, rather than the figure "actually" being different. ADSL... such an exact science (not).

 

[tezabeza]

Good news.

Ordered 3 of the antenna yesterday. Delivery not till Monday though! So much for "A Prime" delivery (can't obviously mention the Retailer).

My line seems to be holding up OK with the 7800N. Though quite a few errors being reported over just a couple of days! Strangely doesn't appear to effect my true download speed though. SNRM being reported a bit lower than by the Speedtouch router though! Might just be the difference in reporting by the different routers, rather than the figure "actually" being different. ADSL... such an exact science (not).

That's good Mikeo, you should see a better coverage with the higher gain antennas on the router but don't forget that better antennas on the other devices really makes the whole system better as you have a transmitter and receiver in the other gear as well. So really the router is only one half of the problem.

Just to add my 7800n is connected to BT Infinity so the 3.0-3.5Mbps is Meg LoL which for wireless is not bad. I used to get 1.2Mbps with the 54G on the BT business Hub!!!! So yes with the bigger antennas on the 7800 and the bigger antennas on the PC's it has made the network a much better performer and I think was worth the money. As I had previously tried a Draytek 2750n and would not connect. But I think I may know why now after setting up the Billion!!!!

 

[Cold_And_Miserable]

After extensive reading I don't think this router is worth getting.
I have no use for wireless, firewall, filtering, QoS, DCHP, VPN, even gigabit LAN isn't really needed.

Google says there is a D-link and a Belkin router that sync higher than the 7800N plus one claim that the upload sync rate decreased from 1000kbps to 800kbps.

 

[mikeo]

After extensive reading I don't think this router is worth getting.
I have no use for wireless, firewall, filtering, QoS, DCHP, VPN, even gigabit LAN isn't really needed.

Google says there is a D-link and a Belkin router that sync higher than the 7800N plus one claim that the upload sync rate decreased from 1000kbps to 800kbps.

That's a fair comment if you are not interested in a lot of the features that the Billion offers. As to sync... my experience is that it sync's at least as high as any other router that I've tried (EG. Speedtouch, ZOOM, Netgear, Belkin). One thing that I have found over the years, is that while one particular modem/router will work well on one persons line, another person will then come along and say it's crap. That's just life and you can pretty much vanish up your own bottom (so to speak) reading reviews (of pretty much anything)... "been there done that". A lot also seems to depend on what make/brand of equipment is being used in the DSLAM/exchange that you are connected to.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[dmsims]

Well nothing like a practical contribution!

But seriously I would never have even looked at the Billion had we not moved into a rural area. It's a fantastic router for difficult/long lines. YMMV

After extensive reading I don't think this router is worth getting.
I have no use for wireless, firewall, filtering, QoS, DCHP, VPN, even gigabit LAN isn't really needed.

Google says there is a D-link and a Belkin router that sync higher than the 7800N plus one claim that the upload sync rate decreased from 1000kbps to 800kbps.

 

[pyropetepete]

Cheers her goes hope they work Pete,





Hope the pictures give you an Idea as to what can be made for very little effort as long as you have the bits and as this is what I do for a living then I had the wire, coax, connectors, and tools to make this in no time at all really. Joys of being a RF Technogeek LoL

Click the pics for a larger image.

Cheers,

Tezabeza

Tezabeza - photos loaded up perfectly and looks amazing. Nice result!! Im really tempted to play with some DIY aerials!

 

[tezabeza]

Cheers Pete,

Just go on google and type in 2.4Ghz antennas and you should find loads of info on there Pete.

The actual size of the antenna is not very large the bulk is the reflector which in the one's I made are double sided PCB board. The copper pipe that I have on the back is just there so I can support the antenna.

There is also a piece of PCB running between the two antennas on the front. This is to keep the isolation at MAX between the 2 antennas so to aid performance.

If you do want to have a go Pete would be great to see a few pics of the end result.


Cheers,

Tezabeza

 

[pyropetepete]

Cheers Pete,

Just go on google and type in 2.4Ghz antennas and you should find loads of info on there Pete.

The actual size of the antenna is not very large the bulk is the reflector which in the one's I made are double sided PCB board. The copper pipe that I have on the back is just there so I can support the antenna.

There is also a piece of PCB running between the two antennas on the front. This is to keep the isolation at MAX between the 2 antennas so to aid performance.

If you do want to have a go Pete would be great to see a few pics of the end result.


Cheers,

Tezabeza

I say get a topic for it on the go!

I did give this a go yesterday, i cheated and used 4 rivets i had to hand as to soldering!

 

[Talbs13]

Has anyone got this running with WDS bridged with a Belkin or Neatgear router?

I'm assuming I will just input the MAC Addresses.

 

[Router Fan]

What is the actual ADSL performance like? Does it improve the level that the SNR drops at night and the level of errors? I am on a 40dB line and I am currently considering this router.

Thank you.

 

[mikeo]

What is the actual ADSL performance like? Does it improve the level that the SNR drops at night and the level of errors? I am on a 40dB line and I am currently considering this router.

Thank you.

Can obviously only comment on my own personal experience so far.

I live out in the country, approx 2.4km from the local exchange. RX attn for downward side was 34dB for ADSL max, this increased by 4dB (as you would expect) when I moved to ADSL2+ a couple of weeks ago (so now sitting at 38dB). My ADSL max connection via Speedtouch 585v6 was always pretty solid (not a lot of errors and a 6.5Mbps IP profile).

With the Billion 7800N I get around 11.1Mbps sync and this translates to around a true download speed of 9.5 Mbps (88% of sync). During the "training period" the DSLAM switched off Interleaving (a bit surprised on a line this long!) and while my error counts are higher than I would like. The Billion seems to be hanging onto the connection. Just tried downloading a set of new Nvidia drivers (150MB) and average download was 1100KBps (pretty smack on).

Downward SNRM on this length of line has always fluctuated a couple of dB from day/evening/night. Currently around 4.8dB during the day (almost a straight line), starts dropping around 4.30PM (expect at dusk I suppose) and average around 3.5dB during the evening. Drops yet another 1dB (IE. SNRM almost hits 2dB!) when I switch my Plasma TV on (accepted fact these can cause interference). But again the Billion holds on.

Been running RouterStats to monitor the new Router pretty much 24/7. Hence why I can see what's going on. Sometimes I think ignorance is bliss (IE. ignore the detail unless you get problems).

So at the moment, it's looking like this is a decent enough Router for a longish line.

In my case, I might ask he ISP to get Interleaving put back on, as I think this will cut the number of errors (error secs/CRS etc. down) and might allow a higher sync. Though with my downward SNRM I doubt it.

Not sure if the above helps. But thought I would share my experience/s up to now.

PS. I've had / seen folks comment that errors as high as I am currently getting are a "problem". But if so, I'm certainly not seeing / experiencing anything at the moment. Though obviously everyone's line / set-up is different.

PPS. Current total stats looking like (but router still going strong).:
Total Uptimes (From SF counts):
WAN: 2 days, 13:40:24
LAN: 0 days, 00:00:00


CRC: 121483 0
ES: 7879 685
SES: 2020 0
UAS: 33 33
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

PPPS. Unless I'm mistaken (first to admit that I'm no expert). But I can't see that any ADSL modem/router can actually effect the SNR, only it's ability to hang onto the connection as the margin fluctuates.

 

[Router Fan]

Would you mind posting your full stats, mikeo?

Here are mine for reference: