Billion 7800N -early thoughts

Here you go:

ADSLstats-1.jpg


I'm on ADSL2+

Think my line sync coupled with Interleaving off is probably pushing my line to it's limit!

PS. I'm assuming you are on ADSL max, with Interleaving on by the look of the Interleave Depth.
 
Router Fan said:
How much does the SNR tend to vary on your line at night? Are there any specific settings that you use?
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Goes from a pretty rock solid 4.8dB during the day to around 3dB (gradually drops as it starts to get dark). Though appears to drop another 1dB when I have the main TV system on (home cinema system that includes a Plasma TV) and I think it's the Plasma TV doing the extra damage. Just watched a program for an hour off the SKY+ box and during that period I can see from Router Stats that there was a dip of around 1dB during that hour! It also looks like that's where a lot of my errors are coming from!!! CRC's have jumped by around 30k! and error seconds by around 2k!

So the question is... is the Billion more prone to RF interference than the old Speedtouch? or have I just never noticed this pattern before? Should mention that the router has not dropped the line during this.

PS. I don't use any specific settings. The Billion is just as per the initial set-up (IE> only entered user name/password).
 
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InQ said:
Did you run Routerstats on the Speedtouch in the past?
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My thoughts exactly.

Switched Billion 7800N off last night and re-installed the Speedtouch 585v6 this morning.

Unluckily I can't seem to get the telnet features to work fully with the speedtouch, but can get the basic stuff to. So I'm going to leave it running 24/7 and then compare to the Billion. Stats
Currently sitting at:

Uptime: 0 days, 2:14:56
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,147 / 10,725
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 6.25 / 64.92
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 13.0 / 0.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 15.0 / 37.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5.5 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / µ
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 66 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 127
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 31

Assuming that the speedtouch is reporting it correctly. It's got a better RX SNRM than the Billion! I'll be interested to see what this looks like as Dusk approaches and I switch my Plasma TV on! RX syc slightly lower than the Billion (not by much though) and wireless on the speedtouch nowhere near as good as the Billion.

At the moment... gut feeling is... that I might be returning the Billion under DSR! Better wireless reception is no good if the new router does not hold the line as well. Bit disappointed at the moment.

TBC

PS. The Plasma TV is not new, I've had it the best part of 3 years! and it's always been in the same position. It's not even in the same room as the router!
 
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I should add that my microwave effects my 7800N and it kills the wireless when its on (router isnt in the same room but the laptop is). Its fine on my DG834GT though on the same channel and on "G" as the 7800N. I dont think there is anything wrong with my microwave and its never affected any other router i have owned.

Your noise margin does rise in the day and drop at night, your 7800N stats above taken at night (i assume) would include the nighttime drop of the noise margin. You could only really compare by syncing up the 7800N and taking a note of the noise margin and sync and then do the Speedtouch right away to compare, i bet the Speedtouch noise margin drops tonight to a similar level.
 
InQ said:
Your noise margin does rise in the day and drop at night, your 7800N stats above taken at night (i assume) would include the nighttime drop of the noise margin. You could only really compare by syncing up the 7800N and taking a note of the noise margin and sync and then do the Speedtouch right away to compare, i bet the Speedtouch noise margin drops tonight to a similar level.
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Indeed the SNRM falls as dusk approaches, totally expected as you say. It's the ability of the Billion to manage the SNRM over a 24 hour period that I'm not too happy with. Currently running RouterStats over a 24 hour period with the Speedtouch to compare. But at the moment, the Speedtouch is already holding onto a far better margin! It's also the apparent interference from my Plasma TV (that I've had some 3 years) that seems to effect the Billion as well, that's got me concerned! You can see the SNRM drop when the TV is on and the errors jump quite dramatically, 30k CRCs in an hour while watching Lost Girl (sad I know) on SKY+ I'll be interested to see if this happens with the Speedtouch, my guess is "not". And if this is the case, then the Billion goes back.

PS. I've already monitored the Billion over a 24 hour period. So I can see all the dips and spikes etc.
 
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I am looking forward to recieving my 7800N. I am hoping it will allow me to sync at 7616Kbps on a 4-5dB margin and hold that at night.

The router is coming on Monday!
 
Well. That's the Billion boxed up and ready to go back. Thank God for the DSR (though this retailer does offer 30 day money back if not satisfied anyway).

Run RoterStats for 36 hours with my old Speedtouch 585v6 and it holds onto the SNRM far far better than the Billion.

NoiseMargin.jpg


Hardly any drop off in the evening. Where the Billion lost 3dB+

Now I'm not going to trash this router. As it's routing capabilities are fine. But on my line the modem just does not perform as well as my old modem/router. The Speedtouch is also not effected by my Plasma TV being on anywhere as much as the 7800N. Something prospective purchasers might want to take into consideration if they have a Plasma TV (NB. not a new TV and not even in the same room).

Pros:

- Well built. Well vented, certainly no chance of this baby over heating.
- Decent overall spec.
- Good wireless coverage and throughput (yes I did test this).

Cons:

- O/L GUI pretty haphazrd layout and some things missing (no line error stats... though RouterStats does worrk fully with the 7800N).
- Doesn't seem to manage the SNRM (at least on my line) as well as my old Speedtouch and this is the real killer for me.
- Seems VERY susceptible to noise from things like Plasma TV, Microwave etc. Not just SNRM drop off, but induces loads of line errors (30k+ CRC in one hour alone with Plasma on). The speedtouch is fine. Worth noting that the LED TV is fine (as expected I suppose).

I think I've given this router a fair test I think and must admit that I'm a little disappointed.

I had rather assumed that with my exchange having just gone C21/WBC and me now on a ADSL2+ connection, that the more modern Broadcom chipset in the 7800N's modem would talk to the exchange at least as good as the Speedtouch, if not hopefully better. But that is blatantly not the case for me.

Not looking for a flame war over this. This is just my personal experiences over 5 days of testing. I'm quite aware that on another line/exchange (or if someone's coming from a definitely inferior modem/router) that this could well work quite well for them.

Not quite sure what to look at now. As I definitely want Wireless N (and better coverage) and Gigabit LAN but an not prepared to sacrifice connection stability to get this.

Life....
 
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tals said:
My recommendation - but no one seems to want to hear :( Is the Gargoyle setup, it's a small amount of setup to get going but once you have it in place it's a great router

I made a post regarding it on here:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=21119817
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It sounds like a good setup, i looked into it when i saw your post about it. I dont really need the QoS yet but when the kids get a bit older i might.
 
To be fair it's not just the QOS - the QOS is an element but it gives you the underlying openwrt firmware - appears to be rock solid stability wise and is quite satisfying when it all comes together :)
 
mikeo said:
Well. That's the Billion boxed up and ready to go back. Thank God for the DSR (though this retailer does offer 30 day money back if not satisfied anyway).

Run RoterStats for 36 hours with my old Speedtouch 585v6 and it holds onto the SNRM far far better than the Billion.

NoiseMargin.jpg


Hardly any drop off in the evening. Where the Billion lost 3dB+
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Oh dear, that doesn't sound good as that is exactly what I have purchased the Billion for.

I have a SpeedTouch 585v6 but I am on a 15dB target and I can't get the margin back to 6dB with the SpeedTouch. Maybe when I get the SNR reset on my line, I should try the SpeedTouch again.

What firmware are you on?
 
tals said:
My recommendation - but no one seems to want to hear :( Is the Gargoyle setup, it's a small amount of setup to get going but once you have it in place it's a great router

I made a post regarding it on here:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=21119817
Click to expand...

I did have a read of this earlier. But a bit more involved than I wanted to be. Just sort of hoped that there would be a nice one-box solution that would suit me. But nothing out there that I've seen so far seems to fit exactely what I want. Think I'll take a break, chill out and come back and look again in a couple of months time. You know it's got bad when you start dreaming about Broadband Routers :eek:
 
Router Fan said:
Oh dear, that doesn't sound good as that is exactly what I have purchased the Billion for.

I have a SpeedTouch 585v6 but I am on a 15dB target and I can't get the margin back to 6dB with the SpeedTouch. Maybe when I get the SNR reset on my line, I should try the SpeedTouch again.

What firmware are you on?
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You never know, the Billion might work better for you. I just hope you don't have a Plasma TV (I've read a couple of other comments on the WEB about this phenomena since experiencing it). And don't keep nipping out to Microwave your Nachos (so to speak) :eek:

The Speedtouch is running quite an old version of the firmware, 6.1.4.3
I've got a backup 585v6 as well, on later release 7 firmware and that's not as good (and also has a bug logging line errors).

Knowing how random the wonderful world of Broadband can be, you'll get yours and it will probably work fine for you :)

PS. Now got 3 high gain replacement antenna coming tomorrow, that I don't really want now. Think I'll hang onto them though, as they are pretty much a universal replacemt.

Good luck....

Edit. I could have lived with the slight SNRM drop off in the evening (pretty much always happens anyway), as there was still a bit of margin left. But the business with the interference from the Plasma TV was what kicked the Billion into touch. It only need my line to get even slightly worse and that would have been the connection down the toilet!
Mind you, you are at the vagaries of how accurate the figures reported by the different modems are! Maybe the Speedtouch is being optimistic and the Billion is showing more accurate figures!? No way to tell I suppose. Untill I try another modem/router I suppose. For now, I think I'll stick with the trusty 585v6.

2nd Edit. can you not use DMT to change the noise target on the 585v6 (or does it depend on what firmware you are running?).
 
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Router Fan said:
You can, but it will only go to 9dB from 15dB. Unless somebody knows a way to go lower?
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Telnet in and use the following command to trick the router into a larger negative dB drop.

adslctl configure --snr 65500

If 65500 doesnt drop you to 6dB try 65490 and so on until you sync at what you want.

Give it a try, cant be sure it will work on the Speedtouch but it works on the Netgear and 7800N as i think its a Broadcom chipset thing and they all have them.
 
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