Blame on both sides

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https://twitter.com/TEN_GOP/status/898644447218487297

Antifa member brings an axe to a 'peaceful' rally in Durham, tries to spark scuffles.
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Guy brings an Axe to an rally, nothing more needs to be said.

https://twitter.com/thedonaldreddit/status/898902323493195777

During the last rally, there was a fight in a underground garage, well, /pol went to work and the truth came out.

These guys bought baseball bats and jumped some guys in the garage and got beaten back. Look how much money this guy has got.
 
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So just to clarify your position, bringing guns is fine but bringing an axe is provocative

And guns would have stopped a right wing white supremacist driving in to innocent people, so it's their own fault they got injured because they didn't bring guns?

Edit - Oh you edited your post, well done. Well at least the mods will be able to see your hypocrisy.
 
VincentHanna said:
So just to clarify your position, bringing guns is fine but bringing an axe is provocative

And guns would have stopped a right wing white supremacist driving in to innocent people, so it's their own fault they got injured because they didn't bring guns?

Edit - Oh you edited your post, well done. Well at least the mods will be able to see your hypocrisy.
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Well, if they had guns, they might had stopped the driver, just like how the police stopped the islamic terrorists this week and before.

You don't find some guy walking down the street with an axe provocative?

Yes, I edited my post, because you know what, after thinking about it, Second Amendment is the only true answer. :)
 
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VincentHanna said:
You do realise Charlotte in North Carolina and Charlottesville in Virginia are 270 miles apart?
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Yea, just throwing it out there to make a point.

The fact that there is a company that exists to supply rent a mobs for political protests is enough reason for me to not get involved in said protests.

People are being played as pawns in a big political game of chess.
 
VincentHanna said:
One guy with an axe? An extremist idiot perhaps.

Right wingers bought GUNS to a "peaceful" protest in Charlottesville

Anything more need to be said about that?
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both sides brought firearms, neither side used them, they were more of a deterrent and used by people supposedly to 'protect' the group they were with/separate themselves from the other group... this is perfectly legal in the State of Virginia. On the other hand people bringing bats, shields, axes, mace, acid etc.. did intend to use them

here is a pic of some antifa members with firearms, needless to say they didn't personally have any trouble with people being violent towards them or trying to break through the area they where they were stood:


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/who-were-the-counterprotesters-in-charlottesville.html?mcubz=1

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Moved the reply here as it more relevant.

h4rm0ny said:
I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:
  • The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
  • Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
  • White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
  • Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
  • Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.
So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.
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Some fair points there, something to go away and stew on a little.

I'd disagree with the numbers involved however, but as robocod mentioned there's no way either of us can really back up any numbers we provide.

You are probably right about the more tactic acceptance of the militant left (as you put it), but perhaps that's a function of the actual damage they have caused. If things start to ramp it (and it appears it is, arguably as a direct result of the ramping up of the "right") then that will probably change. It's faintly acceptable when it is targeted generally at other extremist groups, but will become a lot more unacceptable if it ends up targeting a greater number of more mainstream positions. So far it hasn't got to that point yet.

And while we can argue about whether Naziism is left or right* the fact is they are the thin end of a much bigger wedge. Racism and intolerance, as an example, is still prevelant throughout society to a greater or lesser extent, they are just the extreme version of it. Many people will share similar sentiments (to a stronger or lesser degree), even though they don't necessarily share the same views.

So again (perhaps to a lesser) extent tactic acceptance of some of the views expressed by the nazis and supremacists are visible outside these circles, including prominent politicians and media outlets.

At the same time there should be no issues with calling out people with those views. Being forced to defend a viewpoint is not shutting down debate or forcing silence, especially when those viewpoints are at the fringe of society. Protesting a white nationalist rally (or any rally you don't agree with) should not chastised, as long as it's legal, civil and non violent. Turn to violence however and its a different matter.

*Herein lies the problem with the overused definitions of left and right.
 
Left and right are simple terms, when in reality it's just arguing the kind of authoritarianism we want or hopefully don't want, the power of the individual is slowly slipping away over a childish argument over who's terms and statements are more valid.

The left/right will accept curbs to free speech as long as it hurts the right/left and they will happily watch as the state come down on either of them, the left have had relatively easy so far with little outside pressure, but it's growing... increasing migration due to ambivalence over the state of the environment will end up with the right empowered by the state.

Yet either side will continue to increase the state's prerogative in people's lives because the situation is acceptably dire to warrant increased belligerence. The state can never be benevolent but we shouldn't accept it becoming a nightmare either. But you know whatever, it's destined to be as it always is with human history to constantly repeat it (saying that you won't for some giggles), the center (balanced viewpoint, whatever you wish to call it) will fold as usual because it doesn't know what it wants or care "because politics is a waste of time".
 
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this is currently trending on Facebook re: the Boston protests:

**warning swearing in the link**
https://www.facebook.com/IsraelNewsOnline/videos/914890948649187/

I won't embed the video here as there is swearing in the back ground more than just a couple of times but the content is relevant to this topic so thought it would be worth posting. Basically a guy wearing an Israeli flag is jostled/harassed by the antifa protestors??? They're supposed to be there to protest against "Nazis" yet they're giving grief to a guy wearing an Israeli flag.... :rolleyes:
 
dowie said:
this is currently trending on Facebook re: the Boston protests:

**warning swearing in the link**
https://www.facebook.com/IsraelNewsOnline/videos/914890948649187/

I won't embed the video here as there is swearing in the back ground more than just a couple of times but the content is relevant to this topic so thought it would be worth posting. Basically a guy wearing an Israeli flag is jostled/harassed by the antifa protestors??? They're supposed to be there to protest against "Nazis" yet they're giving grief to a guy wearing an Israeli flag.... :rolleyes:
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The "anti-fascist" Anitfa are far worse, far more evil, far more fascist and far *MORE* nazi than the cosplay nazis.
 
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