Soldato
Blame on both sides
- Thread starter Screeeech
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The two points might be somewhat related, if more black people are likely to be involved in crime (due to wealth disparity) could that account for why they are more likely to be shot by the police?
Out of like 500 killings in Chicago this year, 10 were killed by the police force, that's 2%. They are literally putting their lives on the line every time they go into certain neighbourhoods, that can't do much for composure..
I remember seeing this interview, Don Lemon getting squeezed..
Uncomfortable viewing
It sums up modern media journalism perfectly, they ask questions which always keeps the interviewee on the back foot and fits a particular narrative and in the few cases where the interviewee tries to have an actual debate all they can do is try to shut it down. If the sherriff had been white CNN would probably have attacked him for being racist.
Associate
Yes I was thinking about this too. This is an issue in itself as there shouldn't be disparity between races in the land of the free, yet there it is; black people are more likely to be poor (cause), and poor people are more likely to commit crimes (effect). But we're missing a vital point - when is it OK for police to kill someone? Any crime? Just violent ones? Just crimes where the killed are armed? Or when the police think the killed are armed? Or where the killed are running away/ evading arrest? Would the killed even be convicted of a crime at the point where they are killed?
Going back to the stats, according to the US Census Bureau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Community_Survey) as of 2016 the total white population was 76.9%, and 13.3% of Americans identified as black. That's a ratio of 6/1. If all was equal, for every 6 white people killed by police, there would be a black person killed by police.
Going by the article I linked to about police killings in 2016 (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/08/the-counted-police-killings-2016-young-black-men) 2.9 white people per million were killed by police compared to 6.64 black people per million. So instead of 6 white people and 1 black person killed by police, 1 white person and just over 2 black people were killed.
Or to frame it slightly differently, last year black people were over 12 times more likely to be killed by police than their proportion of the population suggests.
^^^ yep.
Equally, there is a significant statistical difference in the U.K. criminal justice system for black vs white, even when you adjust for income and education levels.
A black person is more likely to be charged, more likely to be convicted and more likely to be given a longer sentence than a white person for the same crime(s).
One explaination for this is that black people are statistically more likely to please 'not guilty' than whites (because they don't have any trust in the system) but this doesn't completely explain the differences.
Institutional racism still appears to be rife, even if it's subconscious.
Equally, there is a significant statistical difference in the U.K. criminal justice system for black vs white, even when you adjust for income and education levels.
A black person is more likely to be charged, more likely to be convicted and more likely to be given a longer sentence than a white person for the same crime(s).
One explaination for this is that black people are statistically more likely to please 'not guilty' than whites (because they don't have any trust in the system) but this doesn't completely explain the differences.
Institutional racism still appears to be rife, even if it's subconscious.
Soldato
Sorry. I don't buy it. I've been black for 33 years now.
And don't believe I've ever come across this so called "Institutional Racism" you speak off. Now I'm not saying that racism doesnt exist (that would be stupid. As it exist all over the world. Its a part of life and will never be eradicated). What I will say is that I refuse to believe that it is as bad as many like to make it out to be.
US Black people are around 12 times as likely to be killed full stop. Almost all by other Black people.
This figure could equally be used to support the argument that Black people are proportionally 12 times as likely to be Killed by the police simply because they are 12 times as likely to be violent, aggressive and confrontational when approached by them.
Associate
Yes, FBI stats from 2013 suggest the killing rate of white vs black people is 6/5, and as the population stats show the general split is 6/1, black people are 5 times more likely to be murdered than white people (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls).
I've not seen the stats that show why police are killing this proportion of black people. You could infer that this is because black people (or rather, poor people who are statistically more likely to be black) are more likely to commit a crime, but I've not seen any correlations drawn between the this and police killings.
But to be honest, I really don't think black people are 12 times more likely to be violent, confrontational or aggressive. Thinking so sounds racist to me, or at the very least would be a poor interpretation of facts.
Soldato
Fact is. Out there black on black crime is extremely high. And we're more likely to be killed by our fellow man. Than any other race.
You clearly have more experience than me, so I can't argue with your anecdotal evidence.
However, the data clearly show that you're more likely to be charged, convicted and then given a longer sentence if you're black, compared a white person with the same socioeconomic background and level of education for the same crime.
Now, it may not be 'racism' per se (subconscious or otherwise) but something is clearly happening to skew the figures.
Soldato
I don't dispute those figures. However, to simply jump onto the "Its Institutional Racism" band wagon is pretty lazy imo. Things are not that straight forward. I imagine the crime rate among white people is pretty high (compared to other races) up north... Are we screaming racism there?
I was last pulled over in my mid 20s. The police were very open in their reason for pulling me and my friend over. I quote "There is a high crime rate among the black and ethnic minority. In this area". I wasnt about to hate on them for doing what they done. 1 - Because I knew their reason was valid. And 2 - Because I such searches (on all people regardless of race). Is needed, to try and keep the streets safe.
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There was an item on this on R4 last week. The main drivers seem to be that black people are much less likely to take legal advice right at the start of the process and this has a massive impact later on. Something you alluded to in your earlier post. Bias is possible too but I don't think it is institutional racism per se.
Soldato
Just dont do the crime. Thats my advice to all people... White, black, yellow, green, etc etc etc
I'm not talking about higher crime rates relating to certain races in specific parts of the country — if an area has a larger population of one particular race, it's no surprise the crime rates will be higher in that area for that ethnic group (that's not racism). I was stating that in general, across the whole country, you're still more likely to go to prison, for longer, if you're black.
I appreciate it's not a simple subject and maybe 'institutional racism' is too easy a conclusion to jump to. However, even if it's 'unconscious bias' and not 'racism', it's still something that we should attempt to address.
Associate
I'm not sure what the stats are for crime by white people vs white population in the North.
Dude that's not ok, you shouldn't have to put up with someone pulling you over for the colour of your skin. If they're pulling you over for a suspected crime and you or the vehicle you're driving match a description then fine, or if you're randomly being pulled over to check your car is legit, insured, taxed and safe again fine. But because your skin colour indicates you're more likely to have committed a crime? No! Not ok. That is bad police.
Soldato
You're kidding....
Did I just not say that they were doing random checks because crime was high high in the area.. among black people.... And that I knew it was a fact?
Sorry but I'd sooner they pulled people over. Rather than be afraid of being labelled a racist. They're there to do a job. Pulled me over. Done some checks and I went on my way. I had nothing to hide. So no issue.
Associate
Their check wasn't random - they were targeting black people. Look if you're fine with that then I'll leave it there.
Soldato
They did this in Beijing when I was over there, I don't see the problem if the police have been told to do random checks in certain high crime areas. They didn't pull us over, but they pulled over the cars in front, they were Chinese drivers, you can hardly scream racism at the Police.
They do it on the Mexico border too, random checks and what not.
Associate
I'm all for random checks if they are actually random.
Soldato
Yeah, as a police officer, what gives you a better chance of catching a criminal, random checks or looking out for certain clues that could lead you to a criminal, if your in the Police, you're naturally going to do the latter.
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