Blame on both sides

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Freakbro said:
Oh don't get me wrong, a bit like Angillion posted, I'm a proud Liberal with left leanings and i'm embarrassed by the actions of some of these groups (especially from America). All these SJWs being 'offended' at everything, 'cultural appropriament' etc....its bonkers and the pendulum has swung to far their way, which has just led to the more extreme polarisation of both sides, leaving us centrists and moderates rather stranded and with little options but to appear to support either extreme view if you are critical of the other side

But to come back full circle on topic about Charlottesville, these were real life Nazis who turned up and if you were marching with them you have no right to call yourself a moderate right winger and the people protesting them weren't in majority Anti-fa, just the local residents

And to repeat the point of the title, there is no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK and white supremacists and their counter protesters just because both sides use violence
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Say some idiot turns up, waving a flag generally a bit of a knob, but is just protesting, and gets hit with a brick/bottle/whatever by a "counter protestor", who is in the wrong? The guy (mistakenly/stupidly) waving a flag and using his free speech or the guy that attacked? Because there are nuances to most stories (lacking tremendously in this whole debacle), people labelling each group into two categories is dangerous...
 
Freakbro said:
Rubbish, and shows your ignorance of history.

It makes me chuckle when you youngsters think this is all new in your time. There has been fascist groups and anti-fascist groups fighting them for at least the last 40 years - probably longer. The Anti Nazi League started in the 1970's due to a rise in popularity of the far right, this was replaced in the 80's with Anti Fascist Action and then just changed names / merged with other groups sInce then. And on the other side you had The National Front, Combat 18 at al
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I didn't say there were no fascist groups. I said those fascist groups have seen their ranks swell thanks to antifa. Basically, I'm agreeing with Noam Chomsky.
 
VincentHanna said:
He did say



No wonder I'd never heard of them
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First I heard of them was when one of them sucker punched Richard Spencer during Trump's inauguration. First I actually started paying attention to them was when they rioted at a Milo talk, assaulting people who had come to listen to him. They may be a tiny fringe minority, but they're making a big splash. Too bad their tactics are utterly self-defeating.
 
Freakbro said:
Oh don't get me wrong, a bit like Angillion posted, I'm a proud Liberal with left leanings and i'm embarrassed by the actions of some of these groups (especially from America). All these SJWs being 'offended' at everything, 'cultural appropriament' etc....its bonkers and the pendulum has swung to far their way, which has just led to the more extreme polarisation of both sides, leaving us centrists and moderates rather stranded and with little options but to appear to support either extreme view if you are critical of the other side
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Which is why I am not a liberal. I'm what used to be called liberal. I haven't changed, but liberalism has. There isn't a name for my position any more.

But to come back full circle on topic about Charlottesville, these were real life Nazis who turned up and if you were marching with them you have no right to call yourself a moderate right winger and the people protesting them weren't in majority Anti-fa, just the local residents

And to repeat the point of the title, there is no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK and white supremacists and their counter protesters just because both sides use violence
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The moral equivalence comes from them both being violent fascists seeking an authoritarian state, from them both being fixated with the idea of biological group identity, from them both embracing ideas such as thoughtcrime and goodthink. The right-wing fascists are usually more racist and usually more honest about their irrational prejudices. The left-wing fascists are usually more authoritarian and usually more dishonest about everything except their raging opposition to anyone being allowed to say anything other than what they say people are allowed to say. There are differences, but they are close enough for there to be plenty of moral equivalence.

There were people on both sides who weren't fascists, but they're not very relevant. It's inherent in a more moderate view - people who have a more moderate, more tolerant view don't passionately seek power over others and don't do everything to get it (lying, intimidation, bullying, assault, etc) so they rarely have much power. 100 extremists devout in their violence and propaganda can easily have more power than 10,000 reasonable people, even 100,000 reasonable people.
 
I don't know why this thread continues, virtually no one here would protest alongside people with swastikas surely!
As a youngster a group of us got dragged to an anti vivisection march, they started shouting meat is murder as we walked passed McDonalds, we peeled off and got a burger :)

however right thinking you believe you are, listen to Arnie!
 
Tunney said:
Did you know who Richard Spencer was before he got punched? I wondered why they were punching the guy from Deafheaven at first.
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I actually didn't. When people said he was a nasty white supremacist racist, my first thought was "well, he's almost certainly not a white supremacist racist then", because snarls like that are frequently levelled at people just for disagreeing with someone. But no, turns out he actually is a white supremacist racist. Credit where credit's due - they do occasionally find some actual fash to bash.
 
Indeed, though him getting punched is the way that most people (me included) found out who he was. It was sort of counterproductive in that sense, plenty of people would still not know who he was if they hadn't punched him mid interview and generated so many headlines around the world and some of the people who then looked him up might have been persuaded by. You really don't want to give these people that sort of publicity.
 
Trusty said:
That's why left and right is daft terminology at times, because there's no moral equivalence between Nazis, KKK & white supremacists with conservatives either, just because you have a realistic view that there is a certain hierarchy to life, doesn't mean you espouse it in your day to day life. Treat everyone as you'd like to be treated yourself and all that jazz.

The conversation is being directed like that at the moment though, anyone who oppose's their view is basically a Nazi. It's proper unintelligent with no introspection. Also, just look at the crowd differences, there seems to be a supply and demand issue.

https://twitter.com/TheSwogBlog/status/899032623707828226
This is a perfect example. Look at the likes and retweets difference.
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Much like you're US flag analogy it's never that clear cut. The context has to be taken into account. Someone holding a US flag on Independence Day is a very different context to someone holding one while marching with a far right group.

Yes, it was a small free speech rally, but many didn't realise that because...

But he and the others who gathered at the Parkman Bandstand had never stood a chance of competing with the rumor that neo-Nazis were coming to Boston. That toxic claim was irresponsibly fueled by Mayor Marty Walsh, who denounced the planned rally — “Boston does not want you here” — even though organizers were at pains to stress that they had no connection to Charlottesville’s racial agenda and intended to focus on the importance of free speech.
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http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...mrZBl1NLtz04oW2IBpKK/story.html?event=event25

So there was confusion about the nature of the rally. Context is key, especially when you consider the week before someone had been run over at a rally composed in at least in part by Neo nazis and white supremacists. Obviously that incident was still raw in the minds of many, and was another reason so many decided to make their voice heard in Boston at the weekend.

Individual photos are great, but context is KEY.

That's not to condone the actions of the very small minority causing violence in Boston.
 
Amp34 said:
Much like you're US flag analogy it's never that clear cut. The context has to be taken into account. Someone holding a US flag on Independence Day is a very different context to someone holding one while marching with a far right group.
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This was not at Charlottesville. I've seen many videos where it's happened, at the Boston rally most recently. It's happening frequently, far more than other group tbh, it's just a constant barrage of debates getting shut down etc etc

Good ol BLM

Amp34 said:
Individual photos are great, but context is KEY.
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Context is definitely key, but there's a trend, isn't there? Just check out all the debates being shut down at universities. I provided a link to one in a previous post.
https://theeyeopener.com/2017/08/ry...of-free-speech-panel-citing-safety-concerns/#

Jordan Peterson & Gad Saad, come on now, it's becoming a complete joke.
 
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There is a trend, making mountains out of molehills it seems. :p

Taking what are generally few and far between incidents and making them into some massive issue.

Just as with so many on this forum, outside of the very occasional shutting down of speeches of some people (usually racists and supremacists, but admittedly not always) it's usually people complaining about the debate "being shut down" because people dare to criticize and question their opinion.

Btw what's the context of that video? It's a random Fox News clip with absolutely no context other than someone holding an American flag.

Edit: And to clarify I understand it's at the Boston protest, and presumably it's a protestor standing right next to the line of counter protestors, so not exactly a random innocent person taken completely by surprise, not that the other persons actions are to be condoned. Why was she there? What was she saying?

And as for the link you provided, again context.

particularly given the recent events in Charlottesville
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No, there shouldn't be any violence, however I don't think it's a bad idea to judge the mood of population before doing an event that could be construed as controversial. Just as having some form of Muslim march just after an Islamic terror attack is usually a bad idea, considering the violence that may be posed against them.

Edit 2: ah yeah, and that Jordan Peterson. The one that made the news by talking **** in the first place, and subsequently criticized for his understanding of the law by the Canadian law society. So any protest is likely to have little do do with the subject of the event, rather the person(s) talking and the fact it was just after a rather tragic event.

Edit 3: now you've got me looking in to all your claims another interesting tidbit, related to your claim of shutting the debate down. This time related to Milo Yiannopoulos.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.the...lo-yiannopoulos-campus-speaking-tour-colorado

Yiannopoulos has a habit of singling out students at some of his campus talks. In Wisconsin last month, he showed a photograph of a transgender student and told the audience: “The way you know he’s failed is I can still bang him,” according to the Wisconsin-Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

At UCCS, he shows a Facebook post written by one of the protesters outside, along with a photo, and says he would “pop him on Breitbart, see how he likes the attention”.

“You think I can’t ruin his Google results?” he asks the audience.
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What a nice guy, and a prime example of how the "right" are so hard done by with only the "left" trying to shut down debate...

It also appears he's done an entire campus tour, so again it doesn't appear like the incidents reported on the news are a representative sample of what is actually happening, even if there are protestors at his events, which occasionally (unfortunately) get violent. As I said to H4rm0ny, absolutely nothing wrong with a peaceful protest outside an event being done by a controversial figure like him.
 
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Huh? Have you not been reading the past few pages, it seems like i'll have to repeat what i've said in a few previous posts.

Regarding the flag, it hasn't just started to happen, it's happening all the time, people having an American flag are seen as enemies. It's not just people waving american flags, people holding any type of sign which doesn't fit into their views are being ripped away hence why i mentioned a pro lifer being baited at the Boston Ralley.

Again, these shutting down of events hasn't just started to happen, i'm not sure why you think Charlottesville is the problem.. We're talking about the trend where it's happening all the time. Not a mountain out of molehills, it's important people can talk freely, surely?

this was a year ago even..
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...gag-free-speech-rights-transgender-muslim-gay

It seems to be hitting boiling point in the US.
 
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Trusty said:
Huh? Have you not been reading the past few pages, it seems like i'll have to repeat what i've said in a few previous posts.

Regarding the flag, it hasn't just started to happen, it's happening all the time, people having an American flag are seen as enemies. It's not just people waving american flags, people holding any type of sign which doesn't fit into their views are being ripped away hence why i mentioned a pro lifer being baited at the Boston Ralley.

Again, these shutting down of events hasn't just started to happen, i'm not sure why you think Charlottesville is the problem.. We're talking about the trend where it's happening all the time. Not a mountain out of molehills, it's important people can talk freely, surely?

this was a year ago even..
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...gag-free-speech-rights-transgender-muslim-gay

It seems to be hitting boiling point in the US.
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But as already mentioned (and the issue at stake in the thread really), a Nazi protest in the UK wouldn't have been allowed and that isn't a bad thing. I think people are over egging matters here, claiming the end of the world is nigh, what with people not being allowed to stomp through the streets pretending to be Nazis.

Well for one, they are quite clearly allowed to stomp through the streets pretending to be Nazis in the US and two, you've been living in a country that hasn't allowed you to stomp through the streets pretending to be a Nazi for decades. Do you really feel like your civil liberties are lost and you haven't the rights you desire? Is it really that bad?

Again, rights vs responsibilities
 
sports_brah said:
Say some idiot turns up, waving a flag generally a bit of a knob, but is just protesting, and gets hit with a brick/bottle/whatever by a "counter protestor", who is in the wrong?
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The Nazi

SlyReaper said:
I didn't say there were no fascist groups. I said those fascist groups have seen their ranks swell thanks to antifa.
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And I disagree, the fascists groups have seen their ranks swell thanks to the econonomic crash, as always happens, and the rise of the anti-fascists is in response to that.
 
atifa/blm are a response to sjw online and msm brainwashing.
a lot of the line members think their opponents actually are facists because they've been trained to mis-identify facists. i.e. any white guy will do.
 
billysielu said:
atifa/blm are a response to sjw online and msm brainwashing.
a lot of the line members think their opponents actually are facists because they've been trained to mis-identify facists. i.e. any white guy will do.
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Yeah,

Just look at all that mis-identification

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Exactly, if they used picture cards like the images above .... those are Nazis.

The vast majority of the people Antifa/BLM call racist/white supremacist/facist/nazi don't look anything like that. They look like regular folk.
 
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