Brazilian Grand Prix 2011, Interlagos Circuit - Race 19/19

Mr Men said:
You tell me why Heikki moved out of the way for Lewis then :) but as usual you will make a comment then change tact, really not worth the bother is it :)

team orders never went away, even when they were "banned" everyone knows that surely.

Ferrari never told Massa to move over either on the radio, was that a team order?
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"Ron Dennis acted quickly yesterday to reject any suggestion that his McLaren drivers had been acting under team orders, which are banned in formula one. Lewis Hamilton was largely dependent for his win in the German grand prix on his team-mate, Heikki Kovalainen, allowing him past on lap 52 after the Briton had emerged from his second stop behind the Finn.

According to Dennis, Kovalainen was simply told that Hamilton was much quicker and he took the decision himself to allow his team-mate by. "The only thing we advise drivers is the respective pace of the other driver and they ultimately call it," the team principal said. "Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports

Strangely there wasn't the same outcry as when Massa got the same sort of call.

There was no outcry when Ron said he had to 'virtually' pre decide who won the monaco GP in 2007 either except from the british press because lewis didn't win.

Ron was always shady how he dealt with a driver who wasn't his favourite. He made DC move over twice and then ran his mouth of that DC had brain fade when the car failed on him on the grid. If you were not the golden boy he let you know. He signed JPM and Alonso with the sole intention of not letting anyone else have them, he then did his best to make them uncomfortable against his golden boys.

It's difficult for them to do now because Button and Lewis have a title each and have far too much weight to sling around compared to a heikki or massa/DC/Webber. I believe they are far with the pair of them right up until they need one of them to win the title.

This could all change if Lewis has a stormer next year and they are desperate to retain him.
 
Mr Men said:
Known from where? any source for this, you made claims the other day about Kimi having a no1 contract which made MS leave, you could not give any source for that either...

Would love for some source for these sort of claims really.

If it was written in Alonso's contact then how come Massa has held him behind many times, why did Alonso have to barge pass him in the pitlane, and why did Alonso have to get on his radio in Germany to complain about being held up?

Seems you are just making these things up really.
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I like how sunama and I post the same things, yet you only accuse me of making stuff up.

How about you provide a source for your claim that Ferrari run completely fair contracts...
 
Skeeter said:
I like how sunama and I post the same things, yet you only accuse me of making stuff up.

How about you provide a source for your claim that Ferrari run completely fair contracts...
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He is not claiming Alonso has a no1 contract as you are, Alonso is no1 at Ferrari nobody is denying that, but not because his contract says so.

Yesterday you claimed Kimi had a no1 contract, which made MS leave, you could offer no source.

You are now claiming Alonso has it written in his contract he is no1, again please provide some source, otherwise it seems you are just making it up to try and furnish your opinion as if it adds weight to it.

If you read my post you would see I mentioned reasons why I think you are making things up, Massa has held up Alonso, Australia last season was a big statement about Alonso having no such contract, also Alonso having to bully his way past Massa in the pitlane, and off course Germany, all go to show that there is no no1 contract. I am not the one making bold claims about contracts, so why are you turning it around onto me being the one to prove your comments are made up?
 
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a lot of factors external to the current performance levels (ie at some after the staret of the season) could affect what McLaren do for either driver;

1) The fact that JB beat LH this season gone - which no-one expected to ever happen

2) JB's new "multi - year" deal and McLaren wanting to keep him happy

3) Lewis yet to sign on the dotted line for 2013 onwards (and considering how much they have invested in him so far, this isnt a minor matter at all)

4) The guidance each driver gives to the 2012 car (over the winter) and how succesful it is in Melbourne and beyond (obviously the start of the season is crucial as this is where McLaren have let themselves down of late)

Im sure there are other behind the scenes factors that havent been mentioned also (it was mentioned in the press that Lewis had alienated some of the team, but Im not sure how accurate that is, and whether his recent win in Abu Dhabi will have made that "water under the bridge" or not)


Either way its unlikely anything will become obvious before well into 2012 season if not much later
 
ShakenNstirred said:
but team orders are legel now so you can just say it over the radio
i dont think it was anything but a a gearbox problem
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It would be a bit humiliating to have him move over though. I'm not a conspiracy theory nut but that was the slowest gearbox oil leak in history ;)

I'm curious as to how you manage that with the driving style with loss of oil from lap 5. Is short shifting but still travelling fast enough to come 2nd really going to save a box that's losing oil from lap 5?

All they were doing was doing a few less gear shifts per lap.

I'm not convinced tbh :D
 
What I found amusing was that at first, they said, " Seb, you need to short shift 2nd gear".
Seb was still maintaining a good lead.
Then once Webber was in 2nd place, they sent a much stronger order, "Seb you need to short shift on every corner".

Then before Seb yielded, he set one of the fastest laps of the race, at that point.

Certainly, Seb did not want to give up that place. In years gone by, some team-mates throw a morsel to their inferior team-mate (Mansell and Senna did this to Patrese and Berger, respectively). Not Vettel though. He wanted to win every race...and to hell with Webber. :)

I don't blame Vettel...I'd have done the same.

I love a good conspiracy theory, me, but the most important fact to note was that they asked Vettel to slow down, even when Webber was not in 2nd place...which tells me that perhaps something was wrong with Vettel's car.
 
Skeeter said:
I dunno, didn't Schumacher once win a race having lost a few gears?
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Spain 1994 - he was stuck in 5th yet still finished in 2nd place. He didnt win that one.

That was an epic performance.

MSc was just plain awesome. Its a shame that a lot of people who are new to F1 are seeing MSc getting beaten....this is not the "real" MSc.

The "real" MSc could lap his team-mate. IMO, the most complete driver in F1 history, by far.
 
sunama said:
Spain 1994 - he was stuck in 5th yet still finished in 2nd place. He didnt win that one.

That was an epic performance.

MSc was just plain awesome. Its a shame that a lot of people who are new to F1 are seeing MSc getting beaten....this is not the "real" MSc.

The "real" MSc could lap his team-mate. IMO, the most complete driver in F1 history, by far.
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every now and then the lights still flicker :)
if he can sort his qualifying out for next year he wont have half the problems hes had this year faffing on with the renaults ,torro rossos and saubers has cost him a lot of points.

hes in the same ROC group as button this weekend btw :D

hopefully there will be a free web stream again
Race Of Champions (Sunday December 4)

Group A
Filipe ALBUQUERQUE, DTM star and reigning ROC Champion of Champions
Andy PRIAULX, three-time World Touring Car Champion
David COULTHARD, winner of 13 Formula 1 grands prix :D
Travis PASTRANA, four-time Rally America winner and X-Games legend

Group B
Mattias EKSTROM, DTM star and triple ROC Champion of Champions
Martin TOMCZYK, 2011 DTM Champion
Jan KOPECKÝ, three-time Intercontinental Rally Challenge runner-up
Sébastien OGIER, winner of five WRC rallies in 2011

Group C
Michael SCHUMACHER, seven-time Formula 1 World Champion
Jenson BUTTON, 2009 Formula 1 World Champion
Brian DEEGAN, 13 X-games medals including Rally Cross gold in 2011
Juho HÄNNINEN, 2011 S-WRC champion and 2010 IRC champion

Group D
Sebastian VETTEL, 2010 and 2011 Formula 1 World Champion
Tom KRISTENSEN, eight-time Le Mans 24-Hour race winner
Vitaly PETROV, Formula 1 driver for Lotus Renault GP
Romain GROSJEAN, 2011 GP2 Series Champion


ROC Nations Cup (Saturday December 3)

Group A
Team France (Sébastien OGIER & Romain GROSJEAN)
Team Nordic (Tom KRISTENSEN & Juho HÄNNINEN)
Team USA (Travis PASTRANA & Brian DEEGAN)
SAT1 Team Germany 2 (Timo GLOCK & Timo SCHEIDER)

Group B
Team Germany (Michael SCHUMACHER & Sebastian VETTEL) :)
Team Slavic (Vitaly PETROV & Jan KOPECKÝ)
Team Great Britain (Jenson BUTTON & Andy PRIAULX)
Team All Stars (David COULTHARD & Filipe ALBUQUERQUE)
 
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I remember in the early 2000's the F1 TV show explaining how Schumacher could provide a little 'flick' into the steering that removed the weight from the inside front wheel breifly mid turn, allowing him to ride the kerbs further and smoother, and therefore lap faster.

Its stuff like that that just makes your head go 'wtf?!'.

I was never a fan of the guy, but you have to respect pure skill.

I do think it could turn out to be a mistake coming back though. Unless he turns things around he will be remembered by some as the champion who made a mediocre comeback, rather than the 7 time champion who retired after breaking every record in the book. This will be a shame. He needs a few podiums next year. Its more in the hand of Merc to provide him a decent car though.

I assume RoC isn't on Freeview anywhere?
 
Skeeter said:
I do think it could turn out to be a mistake coming back though. Unless he turns things around he will be remembered by some as the champion who made a mediocre comeback, rather than the 7 time champion who retired after breaking every record in the book.
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Naw - That he's completive, pretty much matching NR - at the age of 42 is amazing to be honest. Mistake? Racing F1 is what MS does. That his career is some 5 years longer than the usual is pronominal.

If MS had been in the RedBull, this year, he would have beaten Webber and taken an 8th championship at 42.

I really hope the 2012 Merc is a capable of reaching the podium.
 
The 7 time world champion just matching his young team mate in the same machinery...

I know its a tough challenge as when you set the bar as high as Schumacher, but having a mid top 10 season is the equivalent of an average driver having an awful season.

2 seasons in, and he has been beaten by his team mate in both of them. Surely by the standard of Michael Schumacher that is below what is expected?

I hope he beats Rosberg before he retires again, an gets a few podiums, if just to convince people (including me) that this wasn't a mistake, especially when you consider the other options Merc had, including retaining Button, who has arguably had 2 of the best seasons of his career.
 
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schumacher had 3 mechanical failure related DNF's while rosberg had no mechanical failures or the odds are schumacher would have had the most points out of them.
also
Schumacher has three 5th place finishes and a 4th place this season compared to Rosberg's two 5th place finishes. While i do believe that schumacher is not the same driver that he was before he retired, i think he still has the skill and determination to win, if provided with a capable car.

next season schumacher just needs to get his car where it should be in qualifying and he will be much better off.

i dont get why at the last race of the season his side of the garage didnt get him to set a q3 qualy lap... if he had of done he wouldnt have been faffing around with senna at the start, same story for most of the year when he has made it to q3.

doesnt set a time , pays for it in the race
 
sunama said:
I love a good conspiracy theory, me, but the most important fact to note was that they asked Vettel to slow down, even when Webber was not in 2nd place...which tells me that perhaps something was wrong with Vettel's car.
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Webber was always in 2nd place in Brazil

Neither JB or Alonso ever passed him

(unless yur splitting hairs and not comparing pitstop position)

Skeeter said:
I hope he beats Rosberg before he retires again, an gets a few podiums, if just to convince people (including me) that this wasn't a mistake, especially when you consider the other options Merc had, including retaining Button, who has arguably had 2 of the best seasons of his career.
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So glad it ended the way it did - Button deserved a better car than the Mercedes has been for the last two seasons (and probably three)
 
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