Brazilian Grand Prix 2011, Interlagos Circuit - Race 19/19
- Thread starter Duke
- Start date
No, but it was 15 years ago and I did qualify my statement with 'in my memory'.
And you have evidence that all these passes were because of team orders where Heikki was told to move over by the team, over the radio which is monitored by the FIA, at a time when team orders were banned?
Were not arguing that one driver hasn't got out of the way of another. Were arguing weather the team told them too.
You tell me why Heikki moved out of the way for Lewis then 
but as usual you will make a comment then change tact, really not worth the bother is it
team orders never went away, even when they were "banned" everyone knows that surely.
Ferrari never told Massa to move over either on the radio, was that a team order?
but as usual you will make a comment then change tact, really not worth the bother is it team orders never went away, even when they were "banned" everyone knows that surely.
Ferrari never told Massa to move over either on the radio, was that a team order?
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Just so your crystal clear, this is the question we are discussing.
And it appears the answer is Jerez, 1997.
No I was talking about your comment, which is why I quoted your comment
I assumed you watched F1 in 97, 98 etc my bad, but 2008 I am sure you watched?
Soldato
So, 14 seasons ago.
This means that McLaren don't often ask drivers to "move over". Hold station is one thing...but "move over", this is usually done when there is an outright team-leader (like Vettel/RBR, Alonso/Ferrari and all the many other drivers in previous years).
For this reason, I feel that Hamilton is basically being hamstrung and is less likely to win the title while Button is at McLaren and while Vettel and Alonso get preferential treatment from their own teams.
Basically, Hamilton will not only have to beat Button, but McLaren will have to produce a car that is faster than the other teams, but a massive margin. This will guarantee a 1-2 finish in the title race.
If I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would look to move to a team (either RBR, where you only have to beat 1 car to win the title, ie Vettel) OR to another team who can base their entire team around you (eg. Renault).
He or Alonso should have won the title in 07, they never won it not down to the team or taking points of each other, but by both making mistakes. Not sure why you think he is hampered by having a team mate like Jenson, if Lewis is good enough to dominate the team then Jenson would yield when it come to it.
Not too sure I can understand your point, are you basically saying for Lewis to win again he needs a poor team mate?
You could say 1997 was the last time but that would be conveniently forgetting about Heikki.....DC had to move over after that as well but nevermind it does not suit the debate to have the facts
Red Bull won't want Lewis while they have Seb anyway.
Not too sure I can understand your point, are you basically saying for Lewis to win again he needs a poor team mate?
You could say 1997 was the last time but that would be conveniently forgetting about Heikki.....DC had to move over after that as well but nevermind it does not suit the debate to have the facts
Red Bull won't want Lewis while they have Seb anyway.
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Its about the number of people you are fighting against. If your team mate is a designated number 2, that removes one driver from the equasion. For example, Hamilton would have to beat Alonso, Vettel and Button if McLaren run an equal driver policy. Beating Button would also mean beating him on raw skills and not though any car advantage. Removing Button means Hamilton would only have to beat Alonso and Vettel, and if different cars, its possible that could be easier if the McLaren is ahead.
But its not a perfect way to run a team. If you designate a number 1, and then they have some bad luck or don't perform, your chances of winnign are reduced. There is also the potentially difficult situation of your number 2 having a much better start to the season than the number 1.
But its all swings and roundabouts. Its 2 very different ways to run a team. McLaren are the equal team, Ferrari are the 1 man show, and RBR are on a sliding scale in the middle depending on how they are feeling at the time.
There is no right or wrong way, both have had success, but sunama is right in saying that more often than not, when the equal drivers tactic has worked, its been when the car has been the best by some margin (McLaren in the late 80's, Williams in the 90's, etc).
Having the best car and running a 1st driver policy is almost guaranteed to win you the championship (drivers at least), as shown by RBR this year.
But its not a perfect way to run a team. If you designate a number 1, and then they have some bad luck or don't perform, your chances of winnign are reduced. There is also the potentially difficult situation of your number 2 having a much better start to the season than the number 1.
But its all swings and roundabouts. Its 2 very different ways to run a team. McLaren are the equal team, Ferrari are the 1 man show, and RBR are on a sliding scale in the middle depending on how they are feeling at the time.
There is no right or wrong way, both have had success, but sunama is right in saying that more often than not, when the equal drivers tactic has worked, its been when the car has been the best by some margin (McLaren in the late 80's, Williams in the 90's, etc).
Having the best car and running a 1st driver policy is almost guaranteed to win you the championship (drivers at least), as shown by RBR this year.
I am not so sure Ferrari and RBR run a no1 policy, it's just more than likely that Seb and Alonso are better than Webber and Massa, while Lewis and Jenson are more evenly matched. If Jenson slumped then I have no doubt McLaren would be backing Lewis.
Ferrari run a 1st driver policy. They are very open about it, and it is known to be written into Alonso's current contract.
RBR claim there drivers are equal, but it has been clear that that may not always be how they are treated. Contractually I've no idea what is or isn't written in.
RBR claim there drivers are equal, but it has been clear that that may not always be how they are treated. Contractually I've no idea what is or isn't written in.
RBR and Ferrari definitely have a No.1/No.2 policy.
Webber wanted the whole world to know this last year and did whatever he could to ensure the audience knew this. RBR however, were claiming that this was not the case.
Alonso - I'm surprised you don't know about their No.1/No.2 system. You do understand that while MSc was at Ferrari that there was a No.1/No.2 system in place...don't you?
I believe Webber.
That's a very big IF. What IF Button does not slump? What if he continues to improve and runs Hamilton, neck and neck? What then?
At this point, it is more likely that Hamilton will be the one to slump...not Button. Mentally Hamilton is not very strong and seems to be completely in love with his girl friend. If she doesn't support him...it would appear that he falls apart.
Known from where? any source for this, you made claims the other day about Kimi having a no1 contract which made MS leave, you could not give any source for that either...
Would love for some source for these sort of claims really.
If it was written in Alonso's contact then how come Massa has held him behind many times, why did Alonso have to barge pass him in the pitlane, and why did Alonso have to get on his radio in Germany to complain about being held up?
Seems you are just making these things up really.
MS was MS, Eddie had a no2 contract, Jean Todt ran the show, Todt is gone now and Stefano runs a much fairer ship as we seen with Massa and Kimi, there was no no1 there, Alonso is the current no1 because he is quicker nothing more. Operating a no1 policy will be written in the contracts, Ferrari do not have such a thing any more. To suggest Ferrari are the same as the MS era is silly really.
Webber was such a no2 that he was the favourite for the title last year right? How was he treated as a no2 other than the wing incident at Silverstone? He also went on to sign a new deal which was not a no2 driver contract as he clearly stated.
If Button does not slump and Lewis does then McLaren will work the same as any other team does and give the faster driver more attention. If Lewis can't handle beating Jenson then I don't see how he can jump to Red Bull and have any hope of beating Vettel. The whole gf thing is just a smokescreen for his poor form.
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