Breaking News:- Another Police woman Shot

[Luseac]

Some of the comments on here are laughable.

Arming cops will put more guns in circulation? Uh, only with the cops. Unless the cops are the ones commiting the crimes than the criminals are not going to have any moe guns available to them than they do now.

As for arming the police and the criminals will arm-up? The cops in the states are armed with shotguns, pistols and some with rifles. The criminals are still using pistols and shotguns. I think there has been one major case of automtic gun fire at the Bank of America but guess what! they would have used those guns regardless and it was only the use of armed police that they wre brought down.

I agree though, British police as a whole should not be armed. I have seen and experianced British police and do not trust them to use firearms in a safe manor. I dont think the mentality is there yet. Not just anyone can use a firearm with confidence and precision and I never saw that in British cops.

Defintly need to up-armor though. Bullet-proof vests are not THAT heavy and should be able to be worn by even the smallest police officers. Bullet proof vests with the Level III plate in them would provide stab proofing as well because IIRC a normal bullet-proof vest is not a good blade stopper. I dont really wanna test it out on mine though.

I agree that giving the police guns won't necessarily mean more guns in circulation, however criminals who own guns would be forced to use them.

As for not trusting British police with firearms, that is interesting. What occurrences have you had with British police? On the whole I have found them to be great at their job.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

The Stockwell incident is not comparable at all.

Do you think the morning of that incident, it was a case of ....

' Well lads, pick yourself a gun up and roam the streets aimlessly. If you see someone acting suspiciously, chase them onto the tube and shoot them numerous times in the head. '

' Yes sarge '

The killing of an innocent man that day is a tragedy and something, somewhere went wrong. That wrong is being investigated and rightly so, so that what can be brought out into the open or viewed in private so that lessons can be learned from to avoid such a tragedy.

I get the impression you may not see the bigger picture of that day, for instance the officers on the ground, their supervisor, a Commander in a control room disseminating all sorts of information as it comes in and split second decisions having to be made and those decisions are sometimes wrong, that does not mean they are made with ill will or malice.

The perfect Human does not exist so whatever field you are in, mistakes will happen. Just a couple more things Zain.

Firstly, I find it deplorable that a roll eyes and a nonchalant attitude is used when a 23 year old female lies fighting for her life attending an incident 99.9 % of Mr and mrs Public never see, let alone go to. Whether you like the cops or not, I don't care. I do ask that some decorum and a little respect is considered though !

Secondly. You may be able to do better ? Sign up, do your time, get trained, pick up a gun and stand your post and let the Met and us all benefit from your valuable input on how not to make mistakes in a split second judgement.

Perhaps the reason they treat police shootings ' differently ' may be the fact that the cops may think of themselves as a big family and will naturally feel sorrow for a shot colleague and also that any person crazy enough to shoot a cop is a greater danger to the truly unarmed civilian.

 

[Sleepy]

Defintly need to up-armor though. Bullet-proof vests are not THAT heavy and should be able to be worn by even the smallest police officers. Bullet proof vests with the Level III plate in them would provide stab proofing as well because IIRC a normal bullet-proof vest is not a good blade stopper. I dont really wanna test it out on mine though.

Current bullet proof vests are bad at protecting against blades, which are a much greater risk for plod.

There is a new vest coming out soon I think which offers protection against stab and handgun cartridges.

 

[Sleepy]

Pistols - automatics and revolvers, Uzi's, ex Soviet Bloc weaponry .... you name it and it is on the streets of this country. Criminals are and have been arming themselves for a long time now with hardcore weapons and firepower.

And yet our streets are not awash with the blood of civilians or police officers.

In Nottingham shootings dropped by 74%, maybe current police tactics are working.

 

[zain]

The Stockwell incident is not comparable at all.

Do you think the morning of that incident, it was a case of ....

' Well lads, pick yourself a gun up and roam the streets aimlessly. If you see someone acting suspiciously, chase them onto the tube and shoot them numerous times in the head. '

' Yes sarge '

The killing of an innocent man that day is a tragedy and something, somewhere went wrong. That wrong is being investigated and rightly so, so that what can be brought out into the open or viewed in private so that lessons can be learned from to avoid such a tragedy.

I get the impression you may not see the bigger picture of that day, for instance the officers on the ground, their supervisor, a Commander in a control room disseminating all sorts of information as it comes in and split second decisions having to be made and those decisions are sometimes wrong, that does not mean they are made with ill will or malice.

The perfect Human does not exist so whatever field you are in, mistakes will happen. Just a couple more things Zain.

Firstly, I find it deplorable that a roll eyes and a nonchalant attitude is used when a 23 year old female lies fighting for her life attending an incident 99.9 % of Mr and mrs Public never see, let alone go to. Whether you like the cops or not, I don't care. I do ask that some decorum and a little respect is considered though !

Secondly. You may be able to do better ? Sign up, do your time, get trained, pick up a gun and stand your post and let the Met and us all benefit from your valuable input on how not to make mistakes in a split second judgement.

Perhaps the reason they treat police shootings ' differently ' may be the fact that the cops may think of themselves as a big family and will naturally feel sorrow for a shot colleague and also that any person crazy enough to shoot a cop is a greater danger to the truly unarmed civilian.

Perhaps you misinterpret me. On that day he was shot unfairly (wasnt it at gun point whilst he was on his knees? is that a split second decision then? lol) regardless of how many factors were at play that day. Mistakes happen yes, easily avoidable ones shouldnt, imo this was no mistake but an act of evil by power abuse. Police are giving themselves new powers without even letting the public know.

My eye roll was just a thought of emotion because I know its going to help in a case to ask for guns or tasers (which are in discussion still?) for all officers, of which many will abuse, need I remind you about the history of discrimination the police force has? both internal and external.

I could do a damn site better but I dont want to sign up to a career where I will be paid low all my life, pushed around and feel miserable daily.

This is what the public pay taxes for then? To see investigations suceed with officers injured but push aside/less care in the general public? Wow thats given me even more confidence in the police!!!!

In no way have I disrespected the officer who has been shot, the poor lass just started.

 

[Sleepy]

In no way have I disrespected the officer who has been shot, the poor lass just started.

She was almost at the end of her two year probationary period. Thats hardly "just started."

 

[zain]

Ok such an important note to point out, thanks! That means I have disrespected her then!!! < sarcasm

 

[Von Smallhausen]

And yet our streets are not awash with the blood of civilians or police officers.

In Nottingham shootings dropped by 74%, maybe current police tactics are working.

London ? Manchester ? Birmingham ?

Shootings have dropped by 74%. What does that mean really ? Less gang members ? Less guns on the street ? Lull in gang warfare ?

It doesn't mean people feeling safer on the streets I would argue.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Perhaps you misinterpret me. On that day he was shot unfairly (wasnt it at gun point whilst he was on his knees? is that a split second decision then? lol) regardless of how many factors were at play that day. Mistakes happen yes, easily avoidable ones shouldnt, imo this was no mistake but an act of evil by power abuse. Police are giving themselves new powers without even letting the public know.

An act of evil ? I am gobsmacked !

My eye roll was just a thought of emotion because I know its going to help in a case to ask for guns or tasers (which are in discussion still?) for all officers, of which many will abuse, need I remind you about the history of discrimination the police force has? both internal and external.

Abuse ? How ? Shocking each other around the briefing room table ? Using them to heat coffee cups on ? The Taser is a Section 5 prohibited weapon by law, as is CS and Pepper Spray. Is that ' abused ' in the manner in which you suggest ? Ho Ho, let's spray Smithy for a laugh ....... maybe not ?

I could do a damn site better but I dont want to sign up to a career where I will be paid low all my life, pushed around and feel miserable daily.

10 years service ( PC ) .... 31k, overtime on top of that, housing allowance of over £200 per month if you joined pre-1994, payments for work of an unpleasant nature, annual priority payments, 6k extra for London officers. Low ? Not the best salary in the world, but I would argue not low and certainly above average. I fit was that low, not so many would do it.

This is what the public pay taxes for then? To see investigations suceed with officers injured but push aside/less care in the general public? Wow thats given me even more confidence in the police!!!!

That is possibly the biggest pile I have heard yet. They will care more for a fellow officer, as would a firefighter care for another firefighter if injured etc etc. All shootings and murders are investigated fully .... they have to be, irrespective of whether it's a cop or not and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. The IPCC would really stand for that wouldn't they !

In no way have I disrespected the officer who has been shot, the poor lass just started.

Well thats how it sounded. If you say otherwise then I accept that and apologise accordingly.

 

[Sleepy]

London ? Manchester ? Birmingham ?

Well heres an article dated today

Source
Detective Chief Inspector Simon Cunneen, who is heading the operation, said: "Reducing street crime is a priority for Lewisham police. Lewisham is currently enjoying a 13 per cent reduction in ... gun enabled crime

Now unless there's an unreported epidemic in other London boroughs or other Cities I think we can safely say that our streets are not resounding to the sound of gun fire as AK armed gangs duke it out LA style

Shootings have dropped by 74%. What does that mean really ? Less gang members ? Less guns on the street ? Lull in gang warfare ?

Does it matter, less shootings, means less carnage. Something undoubtedly due in part to the local plod most of whom have done their job without carrying a weapon

It doesn't mean people feeling safer on the streets I would argue.

Peoples perception of their enviroment and the fears it engenders often lags behind reality. As they come to terms with the decrease in gun violence then they will worry less about it.

 

[fozzybear]

Some of the comments on here are laughable.

Arming cops will put more guns in circulation? Uh, only with the cops. Unless the cops are the ones commiting the crimes than the criminals are not going to have any moe guns available to them than they do now.

Well i suggest that your statement is laughable. Police carrying guns will only add to the current 'gun culture'.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke once said: "All the experience from other countries where the police carry firearms demonstrates that this only encourages the criminals to arm themselves and potentially to turn law enforcers' own weapons on to the police themselves."

I'd rather take his knowledge over yours.

 

[Mulder]

Eh ?

Police carry firearms legally and under authority from the Home Secretary.

Criminals carry them illegally and use them on unarmed cops ?

The carrying of a firearm legally by the police is stopping to their low ? How ?

Because it's saying that our police force requires guns to deal with them, which the police themselves say they don't. Of course it's easy to pass some knee jerk legislation requiring all police men/women to carry guns after a shooting like this. In the long run it just makes the problem worse. If a criminal knows he is likely to be challanged with a gun, he will be more likely to carry a gun. Guns in Britain aren't carried to threaten/shoot the police, it's usually always a gang problem.

 

[adscan]

i am a police officer in th MET and am firearms trained. the training to carry a firearm on the streets of london is intensive and on going. i need to complete tactics refreshers and development shoots every couple of weeks.

i am quite shocked at the comments of some people on here and it is nice to know that i risk my life for these people. they seem to have all the answers. i am sure they risk their lives everyday they go to work. afterall, the photocopier can be a dangerous thing.

it is about time people knew how dangerous the streets in the UK are these days. police officers are not looking to be heros...just to be able to do a job and protect themselves when in times of need.

i am glad i carry a gun as the members of the public i come across dailey wouldnt think twice if the gun wasnt there.

my thoughts are with the injured officer..

 

[Stiff_Cookie]

I agree that giving the police guns won't necessarily mean more guns in circulation, however criminals who own guns would be forced to use them.

As for not trusting British police with firearms, that is interesting. What occurrences have you had with British police? On the whole I have found them to be great at their job.

Well, generally I found police response to be slow and uninterested. We had our car stolen and it took several hours for the police to arrive. My brothers bike was stolen and the same slow response. Also, seeing police on the street and watching them in action, to me anyways, they seem unwilling to get involved and take action. I am not saying that all the UK police are bad at all but I do not think they have the mentality to carry weapons and even given the proper training i think the vast majority would be reluctant to unholster their weapon. Its just not natural for europeans to carry or use guns.

Fozzybear, you can take whoevers knowledge you want. I dont care. Personally I think the guy is looking at the wrong countries or is only seeing what he wants to see.

It is becoming clear to me that armed polce do not encourage or discourage the criminal to carry a weapon. From what I have gathered for watching documentaries and readings, criminals do not carry guns with the intention of shooting it out with the cops. They carry the weapon so that they have something over on the victim.

But feel free to agree with whoever you want, I have mearly given you MY opinion on his matter.

 

[MarkyMark]

Thay have tasers here in North Wales, but they've got an effective range of 21 feet, and can only be used by trained firearms officers which kind of defeats the object.

Yeah but if they trained all the forces with them so all officers could carry them. I think it would make their job a little bit safer thats all

 

[Thrash]

I was up until the end of 2005 a UK firearms officer and had about 7 years experience of carrying a firearm. Criminals will arm themselves whether the Police are armed or not and routinely arming the police will not cause a criminal who was not armed before to go out a obtain a firearm. Likewise routinely arming the police will not cause the already armed criminal to jump from a handgun to a assault rifle. The criminal will take whatever weapon is available to them if they are of that disposition. The only thing that will be a deterrent to them is the thought of being shot themselves.

I have watched hardened criminals defecate themselves when confronted with armed officers and being in that situation will certainly make them think twice about carrying a firearm again. Having a couple of MP5's with safety off pointed at you is a very good wake up call.

I believe the time is right for the UK to come in line with 99% of all other countries police forces and provide its members with the proper tools for the job. The current terrorist and criminal use of firearms means that more and more police officers are placing themselves in situation they can not adequately equipped to deal with. There is the argument that specialist units provide the cover required but I know from experience that certainly in smaller forces the time taken to mobilise a firearms team can be lengthy and certainly more than what the general public would believe. These teams are often brought into action after the event, i.e. after a firearms has been discharged and lives placed in danger.

I now live in Australia where all police officers are armed. They do a very similar job but just happen to carry a handgun. The public accept it and would not have it any other way. There is not a gun culture here but the police are equipped to properly protect the public and themselves. The police here rarely have to draw their weapons but when they do it is for good reason.

The UK has to move on. It's all very well having traditions but when tradition gets in the way of progress then something must be done.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

I was up until the end of 2005 a UK firearms officer and had about 7 years experience of carrying a firearm. Criminals will arm themselves whether the Police are armed or not and routinely arming the police will not cause a criminal who was not armed before to go out a obtain a firearm. Likewise routinely arming the police will not cause the already armed criminal to jump from a handgun to a assault rifle. The criminal will take whatever weapon is available to them if they are of that disposition. The only thing that will be a deterrent to them is the thought of being shot themselves.

I have watched hardened criminals defecate themselves when confronted with armed officers and being in that situation will certainly make them think twice about carrying a firearm again. Having a couple of MP5's with safety off pointed at you is a very good wake up call.

I believe the time is right for the UK to come in line with 99% of all other countries police forces and provide its members with the proper tools for the job. The current terrorist and criminal use of firearms means that more and more police officers are placing themselves in situation they can not adequately equipped to deal with. There is the argument that specialist units provide the cover required but I know from experience that certainly in smaller forces the time taken to mobilise a firearms team can be lengthy and certainly more than what the general public would believe. These teams are often brought into action after the event, i.e. after a firearms has been discharged and lives placed in danger.

I now live in Australia where all police officers are armed. They do a very similar job but just happen to carry a handgun. The public accept it and would not have it any other way. There is not a gun culture here but the police are equipped to properly protect the public and themselves. The police here rarely have to draw their weapons but when they do it is for good reason.

The UK has to move on. It's all very well having traditions but when tradition gets in the way of progress then something must be done.

Straight from the horses mouth and clearly the voice of experience. Very well said.

 

[Aliboy]

Straight from the horses mouth and clearly the voice of experience. Very well said.

And I second that comment. Kinda closes the argument on wether or not the police should be armed Well said that man.

 

[Sleepy]

Straight from the horses mouth and clearly the voice of experience. Very well said.

Shame its the minority view in the police force, none of the serving officers I or my brother are friends with want an armed constabulary as a matter of course. That includes the ex firearms officer.

 

[fozzybear]

If the police are to be armed then i also wish to be armed to protect myself from the same criminals.