BT Infinity & FTTx Discussion

[CorrectHorseBattery]

The differences between TalkTalk and Zen just off the top of my head are:

• Zen are PPPoE and TalkTalk are DHCP
• Zen give you a static IPv4 and IPv6
• TalkTalk give you a dynamic IPv4 and don't support IPv6.

"There's no differences between FTTP providers that I care about" is not the same claim as "the ISP makes absolutely zero difference". You'd definitely not be happy with an ISP that used CGNAT and had 2% packet loss at peak times.

But TalkTalk didn’t have 2% packet loss.

The service was identical to Zen, actually a little quicker.

I stand by what I said.

 

[Caged]

You didn't say "I have had TalkTalk and Zen and noticed no difference", what you said in response to someone asking for ISP recommendations was:

If the FTTP coming into the house works, it makes absolutely zero difference.

Having earlier recommended that people buy whatever the cheapest service is. It's bad advice, and people should ignore it.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

You didn't say "I have had TalkTalk and Zen and noticed no difference", what you said in response to someone asking for ISP recommendations was:



Having earlier recommended that people buy whatever the cheapest service is. It's bad advice, and people should ignore it.

No it isn’t bad advice. It makes no practical difference to a normal end user.

Nobody would notice any actual difference. Sometimes people on these forums really need to understand they aren’t the average user.

 

[robj20]

No it isn’t bad advice. It makes no practical difference to a normal end user.

Nobody would notice any actual difference. Sometimes people on these forums really need to understand they aren’t the average user.

If you needed to contact them you absolutely would notice the difference. Plusnet took well over a week to reply with a suitable answer for me when they failed to process my order. Idnet and similarly before Aquiss both reply within an hour if not minutes with concise answers that aren't copy and paste from a script.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

If you needed to contact them you absolutely would notice the difference. Plusnet took well over a week to reply with a suitable answer for me when they failed to process my order. Idnet and similarly before Aquiss both reply within an hour if not minutes with concise answers that aren't copy and paste from a script.

And how many FTTP orders fail to process such that it's worth paying a large premium in a COL crisis? I think it must be 0.1% of 0.1%.

 

[Caged]

No it isn’t bad advice. It makes no practical difference to a normal end user.

Nobody would notice any actual difference. Sometimes people on these forums really need to understand they aren’t the average user.

You're inventing a "normal end user" to fit your argument. I think that "normal end user" activities would involve Xbox Live (impacted by CGNAT and congestion), an evening video call with US colleagues (impacted by congestion), needing to connect devices wirelessly (controlled entirely by the quality of supplied router). A "normal end user" might also need to phone for support, one of the greatest areas of difference between ISPs.

If none of that stuff applies then why not use a Three 5G service and pay even less?

 

[robj20]

And how many FTTP orders fail to process such that it's worth paying a large premium in a COL crisis? I think it must be 0.1% of 0.1%.

Because that's the only time other need to contact support. Errors in billing, problems part way through a contract, simple questions.
You also have the way they route your traffic around the country. When I was with Aquiss it was extremely obvious that there more a lot more issues with City Fiber than Openreach for example, 9/10 when there was an issue it was City Fiber.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

You're inventing a "normal end user" to fit your argument. I think that "normal end user" activities would involve Xbox Live (impacted by CGNAT and congestion), an evening video call with US colleagues (impacted by congestion), needing to connect devices wirelessly (controlled entirely by the quality of supplied router). A "normal end user" might also need to phone for support, one of the greatest areas of difference between ISPs.

If none of that stuff applies then why not use a Three 5G service and pay even less?

How many ISPs actually have these issues? I've never heard of anyone in the real world ever actually having problems with the non-specialised/expensive providers outside of this forum. I think I've used Vodafone, BT, Sky, TalkTalk, Zen, IDNet, Plusnet over the years and I've never had a problem with any of them, at any time. No issues with congestion, peak time usage, etc.

I am going to stick by what I said, very strongly. Especially with FTTP it will not make any difference to the average user, who buys the broadband, plugs the router in and uses the internet. As I said, back in the FTTC/ADSL days this was something worthwhile but for FTTP I honestly don't think it is, at all.

As to why not use 5G and pay even less, 5G isn't available indoors in a lot of places. The cover for FTTP is much stronger.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

Because that's the only time other need to contact support. Errors in billing, problems part way through a contract, simple questions.
You also have the way they route your traffic around the country. When I was with Aquiss it was extremely obvious that there more a lot more issues with City Fiber than Openreach for example, 9/10 when there was an issue it was City Fiber.

But my point is, how often does this happen? Why would I pay more money for a small risk that upon joining I had an issue?

Like I said, if your service works fine now and you swap to another provider that is cheaper, I can bet with almost 100% certainty that it will work identically except for the price.

 

[robj20]

But my point is, how often does this happen? Why would I pay more money for a small risk that upon joining I had an issue?

Like I said, if your service works fine now and you swap to another provider that is cheaper, I can bet with almost 100% certainty that it will work identically except for the price.

In my experience pretty often. Had multiple issues when I was last with BT took ages to fix.
Sky were similarly useless.
Plusnet most recently screwed up my order, so took it as a heads up and went with Idnet.
I have consistently had better pings with a the likes of Aquiss.
If you think all data goes the same way say between Manchester and London your hugely mistaken there is a difference albeit not always obvious if your not interested in things like that.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

In my experience pretty often. Had multiple issues when I was last with BT took ages to fix.
Sky were similarly useless.
Plusnet most recently screwed up my order, so took it as a heads up and went with Idnet.
I have consistently had better pings with a the likes of Aquiss.
If you think all data goes the same way say between Manchester and London your hugely mistaken there is a difference albeit not always obvious if your not interested in things like that.

I can only speak to my experience, which is that I've not noticed any difference switching between providers, apart from paying a lot less money.

Happy to accept I'm only the one case, however.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I can only speak to my experience, which is that I've not noticed any difference switching between providers, apart from paying a lot less money.

Happy to accept I'm only the one case, however.

Your not, I’ve had the internet at home since 56k was a thing and I’ve never ran into a significant ISP related issue.

I’ve had below average quality connections in the pre-fibre days but it was always entirely down to the quality of the copper line to my house.

It didn’t matter what ISP I did or didn’t have, no one was going to dig up the copper and replace it without me getting my wallet out.

The reality is most people wouldn’t notice if they had a latency of 10ms or 50ms. Almost all ‘normal peoples’ internet related issues stem from completely unrealistic expectations when it comes to the performance of WiFi and a lack of understanding of the laws of physics.

No your wifi access point will not perform well if you put it in a cupboard. No, you will not get good wifi signal in your back garden 20m away from your only access point located the opposite side of your property.

 

[Caged]

How many ISPs actually have these issues? I've never heard of anyone in the real world ever actually having problems with the non-specialised/expensive providers outside of this forum. I think I've used Vodafone, BT, Sky, TalkTalk, Zen, IDNet, Plusnet over the years and I've never had a problem with any of them, at any time. No issues with congestion, peak time usage, etc.

I am going to stick by what I said, very strongly. Especially with FTTP it will not make any difference to the average user, who buys the broadband, plugs the router in and uses the internet. As I said, back in the FTTC/ADSL days this was something worthwhile but for FTTP I honestly don't think it is, at all.

As to why not use 5G and pay even less, 5G isn't available indoors in a lot of places. The cover for FTTP is much stronger.

There's very little point digging up user reports of issues with e.g. Vodafone's frequently congested service because you've already decided your hypothetical average user doesn't notice or care about any of this stuff, the same way you've decided the average user isn't impacted by CGNAT, despite the question being asked by someone who has found a UK tech forum to ask the question on.

Losing stuff like a static IP, a public IP, IPv6 etc. is not "work[ing] identically", please stop telling people it is.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

There's very little point digging up user reports of issues with e.g. Vodafone's frequently congested service because you've already decided your hypothetical average user doesn't notice or care about any of this stuff, the same way you've decided the average user isn't impacted by CGNAT, despite the question being asked by someone who has found a UK tech forum to ask the question on.

Losing stuff like a static IP, a public IP, IPv6 etc. is not "work[ing] identically", please stop telling people it is.

What average user even knows what a static IP is?

 

[Caged]

It's irrelevant, I'm not trying to make recommendations to the hypothetical average user that supports your assertions. You said on a PC enthusiast forum that:

If the FTTP coming into the house works, it makes absolutely zero difference.

And you're wrong, despite repeating yourself a lot. I don't actually disagree with your point that most people won't care about this stuff, but that's not the same as claiming there is no difference between the services provided by different ISPs.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

It's irrelevant, I'm not trying to make recommendations to the hypothetical average user that supports your assertions. You said on a PC enthusiast forum that:



And you're wrong, despite repeating yourself a lot. I don't actually disagree with your point that most people won't care about this stuff, but that's not the same as claiming there is no difference between the services provided by different ISPs.

There is no difference for 99.9999% of users. Happy to correct to that but the thrust of my point was something I very much stand by.

 

[bulldog147]

If the FTTP coming into the house works, it makes absolutely zero difference. I had Zen then I had TalkTalk and the service was identical just a third of the price. FTTP reliability is so high that it really is not worth it.

For FTTC and ADSL it's a different story.

FTTP win hand down with low latency and more reliable. Openreach FTTP has no DLM policy.

G.fast, FTTC still on Openreach DLM policy on it also the further distance away, slower speed for some. ADSL/ADSL2+ still on BTwholesale DLM policy.

 

[bulldog147]

I have to say Aquiss Full Fibre 930/115 is really worth it. Very low latency 6ms and almost 915-930Mbps down and 105-115Mbps up all day long.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

I have to say Aquiss Full Fibre 930/115 is really worth it. Very low latency 6ms and almost 915-930Mbps down and 105-115Mbps up all day long.

I got an equivalent performance on TalkTalk, what is your point?

 

[scgf]

I have the same product with Plusnet, £23 a month cheaper than the Aquiss product. I pay £31.99 a month with £140 payment card incentive: