*******C.A.R.S - Community Assisted Race Sim*********

[Reaper 392]

if any of you guys look at the thread DG made in the CARS forum then you'll see that the mods were very civilised with him there. i admit that one of the forum members was an ass, but that has nothing to do with the mods, and i'm sure that person will be dealt with appropriately. judging by the other forum members replies to that ass of a member he will wont be around for long if he continues in his ways.
(i'm talking about the one who uses the hammerhead smiley a lot btw)

i may not have all your PMs and emails and personas, but from what i have seen i can see nothing wrong with how the moderators are going about their business, and i'm very confused as to why you are spreading bad publicity for CARS from what i have seen. Dj Jestar has the point nailed, so i wont repeat him

i wish you would show me some of these rude comments and fanboi funnies coming from people working at CARS, because i cant find them anywhere

 

[Massicor]

You think the entire point of beta testing is to set the fastest time. Your point is invalid. You won't be missed, along with your "100s of sign ups" idle threats, tbh.

Just calm down and think about this logically buddie.

Anyways they asked those juniors for money to play the beta ..and saying they dont have money to give juniors a core feature of any racing game is silly talk especially since the juniors provided them with money... not as if it cost the organisation any money to give a "old" build to them.

 

[Massicor]

You're making a *lot* of noise for someone trying to make a point that it is of no consequence to them, and that they have just stop using the product without the need to make any noise...

Your point is still invalid. The point of testing is er.. testing. Not setting a personal best.

No sir it is infact your point that is invalid .....going by your logic all "toolpacks" then do not require setting personal best .....but hey they have the feature so why not juniors ? seems like a spit in the face tbh and they have every right to have the feature too.

 

[Borsch]

I see logic in DG's argument- devs said that ALL levels will play identical builds although some will have access to these earlier than others. Now we have some features available to higher paying people only.

 

[Reaper 392]

Just calm down and think about this logically buddie.

Anyways they asked those juniors for money to play the beta ..and saying they dont have money to give juniors a core feature of any racing game is silly talk especially since the juniors provided them with money... not as if it cost the organisation any money to give a "old" build to them.

they did not ask the juniors to play the beta, they asked them to TEST the pre-alpha. theres a big difference there.

the juniors get a new build every month, and are able to post times for the majority of their membership period (its unusual for a junior build to lose leaderboard posting this early). for ~£8 i am struggling to see why people are complaining. (especially when this ~£8 includes an ~£8 off of CARS voucher of some sort, and a share of the CARS profits)

I see logic in DG's argument- devs said that ALL levels will play identical builds although some will have access to these earlier than others. Now we have some features available to higher paying people only.

when did the devs say all levels will play identical builds? its clearly written that juniors get monthly builds, team members get weekly builds, etc, etc. so technically everyone will have the same build for one day, and juniors will have the same build as team members for a week, but after that the other members have paid for the privilege of the next build

its also clearly written that there will be some exclusive content for team members, full members, etc

its very well documented that higher paying members will get some features that lower paying members wont

No sir it is infact your point that is invalid .....going by your logic all "toolpacks" then do not require setting personal best .....but hey they have the feature so why not juniors ? seems like a spit in the face tbh and they have every right to have the feature too.

your right, all toolpacks will lose leaderboard posting privileges when a major physics update is applied to cars. only by downloading a build after the physics update can you post to the leaderboards. this can result, in a worst case scenario, of a 1 month period of no leaderboard posting for junior members and below, 1 week wait for senior members and below, and 1 day wait for managers (and possibly a wait of a few hours for senior managers)

it is not spitting in the juniors face, it is keeping things fair while not delaying the development process for a feature that will only be used during development (ie, a completely worthless one for the full game)

 

[Massicor]

they did not ask the juniors to play the beta, they asked them to TEST the pre-alpha. theres a big difference there.

the juniors get a new build every month, and are able to post times for the majority of their membership period (its unusual for a junior build to lose leaderboard posting this early). for ~£8 i am struggling to see why people are complaining. (especially when this ~£8 includes an ~£8 off of CARS voucher of some sort, and a share of the CARS profits)

You are joking right ? You cant test the pre-alpha without accually playing the game ..so infact sir ..they did idd ask them to play the game!

If there is a new build available every week ..then not long after the juniors get there (monthly) build ..the monthly build becomes "old" again within about a weeks time ...so accually they dont get to post times for the majority of there memership ..they only get to post for a very minimal perioid of the month (around 1-6) days.

£8 isnt a lot for people that can throw money away ..but its still money none the less...and share of the CARS profits ) you make me laugh.

 

[Massicor]

its also clearly written that there will be some exclusive content for team members, full members, etc

its very well documented that higher paying members will get some features that lower paying members wont

Idd they did clearly write there will be some exclusive content (Non-core) features for team members, full members, etc such as :

Access to exclusive cars
Access to exclusive tracks

However what isnt very well written and documented for new customers is the unfair treatment they will get and also that they will be denied the use of a very simple yet very core feature of any racing game (basicly they get lied to and forced to upgrade if they want to have the feature of posted laptimes) so word it however you want friend ..but the fact is that they deserve this core-feature just as much as the other toolpacks.

it is not spitting in the juniors face, it is keeping things fair while not delaying the development process for a feature that will only be used during development (ie, a completely worthless one for the full game)

Lap times and personal bests wont be in the full game ? wow mabie this game isnt gonna be as good as there making it out to be

 

[Reaper 392]

You are joking right ? You cant test the pre-alpha without accually playing the game ..so infact sir ..they did idd ask them to play the game!

If there is a new build available every week ..then not long after the juniors get there (monthly) build ..the monthly build becomes "old" again within about a weeks time ...so accually they dont get to post times for the majority of there memership ..they only get to post for a very minimal perioid of the month (around 1-6) days.

£8 isnt a lot for people that can throw money away ..but its still money none the less...and share of the CARS profits ) you make me laugh.

yes, to test the game you have to play it, i think ive worded this badly. what i'm trying to get at is that as a junior tester there is a range of features that you are being asked to test, and posting times to a leaderboard with an old version of a car is not one of them. in fact, its probably more useful to the pCARS guys to make sure that there are no loopholes that can be exploited which allow older and faster versions of the cars to post times to the leaderboard.

also, the junior build becomes "old" on the monday after they download it, because that is when the next build (available to senior managers and above) is released. it will be the same situation for team members and above, except they will be able to get a "new" build in one week, rather than one month.

also, you are wrong about the leaderboard posting privilages. new build != no leaderboard posting.
a MAJOR physics update to one car will stop ALL members from posting times with old versions of that car. so, if there are no physics updates for a month after the junor build is released, the juniors will still be able to post leaderboard times for the entire month. however, if a major physics update is released the day after the junior build is released then the juniors will not be able to post leaderboard times with the cars that are affected by the physics update until they get their new build next month. the team members will also not be able to post times to the leaderboards until they get their new build in a week, etc, etc.

however, if posting leaderboard times becomes a critical part of participating in the testing and there is a physics change implemented, such as during the caterham hotlap competition, then the developers will release the most up to date build for all members of CARS

*edit*
why does "a share of the CARS profit make you laugh? if they make ~250,000 sales you will get slightly above 1:1 payment back, on top of your testing privilages and on top of the cost of your membership being taken off of your purchace of the final game. if they make 1,000,000 sales then you will get ~4:1* payment back.

*i might be wrong with this, but its a considerable amount

 

[Massicor]

^^^ More mumble jumble buddie ..u need to lay off the coffee

short and to the point ..Laptimes and personal best = core racing game feature
all members paid money = all members should get the core-features no matter what build. Be it seperate leaderboard builds or not .

 

[Borsch]

its also clearly written that there will be some exclusive content for team members, full members, etc

its very well documented that higher paying members will get some features that lower paying members wont


)

In that case- my bad, I stand corrected.

Maybe there is a slight moral hiccup that a feature was given and then taken away form one group of memebers, but oh well - things change during development.

 

[Reaper 392]

^^^ More mumble jumble buddie ..u need to lay off the coffee

short and to the point ..Laptimes and personal best = core racing game feature
all members paid money = all members should get the core-features no matter what build. Be it seperate leaderboard builds or not .

ahh, glad to know your taking my clear points seriously

this is where we differ. laptimes and personal bests are not a core feature of a PRE-ALPHA game. physics, driving feel, AI behaviour and graphics are core features of the pre-alpha, laptimes and PBs are (admittedly high up) on the "nice extras" list.

the simple fact is that you get a hell of a lot for your £8, you are able to get a refund at any time if you dont like what is on offer and the devs just dont have the time to sort out leaderboard for old physics versions along with all the leaderboard insert, update, removal and search queries that would need to happen.

i honestly cant see why ANYONE could complain at the amount of content you get for £8, especially when you compare it to other fully released games out there *cough* iracing *cough*

i wouldnt be surprised if it took the web development team over a week to get leaderboards for old physics models up and running, and that would push back the development of all the other web based stuff. it would also introduce another area for bugs to creep in where ther really dont want them, and would slow down the performance of the leaderboard functions

*edit*

In that case- my bad, I stand corrected.

Maybe there is a slight moral hiccup that a feature was given and then taken away form one group of memebers, but oh well - things change during development.

i agree, its not a perfect solution, but its the best compromise available.

ps, its not been taken away, its just temporarily unavailable

 

[Borsch]

short and to the point ..Laptimes and personal best = core racing game feature
all members paid money = all members should get the core-features no matter what build. Be it seperate leaderboard builds or not .

This is like the US suprem court case with golfer being allowed to use cart instead of walking VS argument that walking is core feature of golf.

Not that straight forward - some would say that core feature is actual driving, and who crosses the line first, stat comparison may be lower on "core-ness" scale Not easy...

 

[Reaper 392]

since Massicor is unlikey to agree with me, and i dont want to turn this thread into a bigger argument than it is already, have some late night pics (well, dusk pics anyway)

click the pics for the full res versions




pictures taken by wizza

 

[SKILL]

I thought the shares/voucher thing was denied way back at the start, or more to the point 'non-committal', and essentially it boiled down to the only guaranteed thing you'd get for your £8 was access to the 'pre-alpha' (which it really isn't anymore, at best it's alpha, more realistically it's now in the beta phase...)

 

[AndyGarton]

the 'pre-alpha' (which it really isn't anymore, at best it's alpha, more realistically it's now in the beta phase...)

The game doesn't even have a career mode or multiplayer yet, so it certainly isn't alpha (feature complete) or beta.

 

[Shadows1990]

Thinking about picking this up (probably at the Team Member level).
What is it like with a 360 controller? I played a fair bit of SHIFT & SHIFT2 with a controller and it always felt a bit floaty, and rather twitchy (especially at low speeds).

 

[Reaper 392]

welcome to the forums Andy
(i hope you dont mind the massive argument on the last page too much)

Thinking about picking this up (probably at the Team Member level).
What is it like with a 360 controller? I played a fair bit of SHIFT & SHIFT2 with a controller and it always felt a bit floaty, and rather twitchy (especially at low speeds).

its pretty good with the xbox controller now. not perfect, but its nice to drive in most situations, and ive managed to get some decent times on the board. i believe andy said that better xbox controller filters are on the to do list

 

[Shadows1990]

Thanks for the reply Reaper, I've gone ahead and bought a Team Member Toolpack.
Can't wait to try it out!

 

[SKILL]

The game doesn't even have a career mode or multiplayer yet, so it certainly isn't alpha (feature complete) or beta.

Presumably you're the Andy Garton that works for SMS? If so welcome to the forums (although seems you've been lurking a while )

That wonderful source of information Wikipedia seems to imply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Stages_of_development) that "Feature Complete" comes at the end of Alpha status.

It also states that Alpha is the start of Software Testing which would imply CARS has never been publically available as a pre-alpha.

But it is mostly semantics, I'm not sure I'd class feature complete as a definition of Alpha/Beta status, especially when some of your competitors aren't feature complete and ultimately will 'never' be (thinking iRacing here). Also rFactor2 being in 'Beta' yet there are, afaik, still features that are being finalised, by Wiki's definition it should be Alpha, and by yours Pre-Alpha.

From a personal perspective I tend to think of Pre-Alpha as completely unstable, basically just stubs more than anything useful. Alpha would start at the first working draft, progressing to Beta as it gets more stable and then staying there for possibly a long time before being 'released'. So by my definition I'd class CARS as Beta, it's stable enough and with enough features/functionality that it, imo, doesn't deserve the Alpha tag, although arguably it did when first released (but not 'pre-alpha')

 

[Borsch]

Interesting development - physics, PR, relationship between developers and community.

Watch the video and read the comments on youtube