C63 AMG / M3 / RS4
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Rather than dodging the question perhaps you could take the time to explain what it is about a C63 AMG which makes it so much more refined than an M3 Saloon of the same age?
'It's a Mercedes' doesn't really count as an answer, unless you are assuming an SL65 Black Series is also a refined and comfortable car..
The reason I ask is you are the first to make such bold claims. Your claims don't appear to be supported by comparison tests or owner comments.
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that the C63 AMG is much the same as, say, an E55 AMG was when compared to an M5. This is not true - AMG have turned a car and no longer do they just make super fast waftmobiles.
'It's a Mercedes' doesn't really count as an answer, unless you are assuming an SL65 Black Series is also a refined and comfortable car..
The reason I ask is you are the first to make such bold claims. Your claims don't appear to be supported by comparison tests or owner comments.
You seem to be under the mistaken apprehension that the C63 AMG is much the same as, say, an E55 AMG was when compared to an M5. This is not true - AMG have turned a car and no longer do they just make super fast waftmobiles.
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No reason other than you get a better feel for the interior of a car when you see different levels of trim. If I had seen Kiwi leather (for example, not sure if they still do this on the E92) then I would instantly hate the interior, no matter how functional or pretty it actually is.
I'm still interested to know what levels of luxury and refinement the C63 offers above the E92 M3. Not arguing, just interested to know. Care to offer?
[TW]Fox;15234698 said:
Whats the betting that this is a paper argument based on no actual real life experience?
Just go and sit in both of them! You may not get it, as we have clearly different opinions and expectations when it comes to cars, but you probably would agree. I personally know people with both of these cars, i will not pretend that my experience of either is comprehensive, but it is enough to say that i PREFER the C63 to the M3 based on real experience. The Mercedes has an interior more in keeping with what i like, and is overall a nicer, more prestigious car in my eyes.
Caporegime
Wrong again Fox, you're losing your touch
There E46 M3 Coupe was made until May 2006 but the Cabriolet went into early 2007.
Yes your right, i just spoke to him via my BB messenger and he said the car is a 2007 model but he bought in Jan 2008 after the owner of the BMW dealership decided to sell it as he was bored of it
...saying that my bro is saying the same thing...says its time for start looking for a 997 911 turbo as thats what he has his eye on....told him to make sure it has launch control on it
Whats the betting that this is a paper argument based on no actual real life experience?
Just go and sit in both of them! You may not get it, as we have clearly different opinions and expectations when it comes to cars, but you probably would agree. I personally know people with both of these cars, i will not pretend that my experience of either is comprehensive, but it is enough to say that i PREFER the C63 to the M3 based on real experience. The Mercedes has an interior more in keeping with what i like, and is overall a nicer, more prestigious car in my eyes.
Thats fair enough, I don't agree (with your saying the M3 is half of a C63) but that's part of life!
My issue with the C63 is that is just seemed to compound what I always disliked about Mercedes, particulalry main market AMG's. I'll try and explain.
This time round I think AMG had a real good go at defending their perceived achillies heel, handling, to use a broad expression. For years they have produced fine cars, some engineering masterpieces IMO (SL55 AMG is one of my favourite all time cars) but they have always played second fiddle to BMW when it came to driver interaction, feel and real life "pace".
It's clear from reviews, tests and customer feedback that they have tried to make improvements and in some places they have. But again they seem to have prodiced a car that when pushed to the limits (why else would you have one?) is still a bit of a handful and frankly doesn't cope as well as a car of that ilk should, given it's aimed more at the M3 than any other AMG I can recall.
That is why the C63, which will comfortably have the edge on an M3 in a straight line, still seems to lose the plot when it comes to testing side by side on a track, or even on real life A Road conditions.
I genuinely think if AMG had concentrated their efforts away from using massive displacement to get the huge power/torque, they could have possibly had a much more balanced package to challenge the M3 with.
So, whilst there's many things I like about the C63, I do not see how you can say it's half the car that the M3 is in all area's but in particular, the important one in this sector of the market, getting from A to B quickly and in comfort. M3 takes it every day IMO.
Man of Honour
Oh whilst the C63 looks the nuts it has MPG figures that would make you cry - going by reviews
Lord knows what the P30 variant is like going by the 186MPH top speed it increases to!
Lord knows what the P30 variant is like going by the 186MPH top speed it increases to!
Caporegime
Most people will buy a C63 to show off, "look what I’ve got its the best in the range" they don't care about driving dynamiques, they don't care if the M3 is slightly quicker A-B, lets face it in the real world both the C63 and M3 are going to get you A-B in exactly the same time.
They only care its got a Mercedes & AMG badge plus its the most expensive in both real terms and looking.
I bet the same can be said for the majority of new M3 purchases.
If thats not how it works then i'll eat my hat because i can't remember the last time someone round my area thrashed a new AMG or M3 or CGT or Ferrari or Lambo or Aston or Zonda etc etc down a country road, show-off mobiles to get one up on the footballers.
In most cases its only when they become secondhand and affordable to the real car nuts that they get driven as they should be.
They only care its got a Mercedes & AMG badge plus its the most expensive in both real terms and looking.
I bet the same can be said for the majority of new M3 purchases.
If thats not how it works then i'll eat my hat because i can't remember the last time someone round my area thrashed a new AMG or M3 or CGT or Ferrari or Lambo or Aston or Zonda etc etc down a country road, show-off mobiles to get one up on the footballers.
In most cases its only when they become secondhand and affordable to the real car nuts that they get driven as they should be.
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You are spot on. But if you build a car of that nature, no matter what the customer base is, it's gonna be scrutinised on it's credentials.
I think the C63 was aimed at getting more of the "M3" market over to AMG's and if they had got it right, it would have worked. At the time, the M3 faithful were not keen on the E9X M3, particualrly given the high list price on release.
But they didn't, and M3 owners after living some time with the car are realising that the knee-jerk "OMG - the M3's lost it's looks, soul etc" reaction is gone and they have a true gem of balance between raw speed and comfort (it can get nasty if you want it to!).
Every point there is why i actually prefer all aspects of Mercedes in general to BMW rivals. There are instances where i very much like BMW, but on the whole i find them too plain, and too harsh. The lack of a harsh edge with all merc's, the C63 included, is why i prefer them. This is ignoring the main reason i prefer the Merc and the basis of the original comment, everything about its aesthetics and feel.
Man of Honour
The C63 is harsh though, going by almost every review I have read they all complain of horrific low speed ride comfort on sub standard road surfaces due to the rock hard suspension the C63 uses.
In a positive light the suspension gives pin sharp responses at high speed and cornering.
Give some...take some.
I guess the main point is that the M3 manages both low speed comfort and high speed agility in one though.
In a positive light the suspension gives pin sharp responses at high speed and cornering.
Give some...take some.
I guess the main point is that the M3 manages both low speed comfort and high speed agility in one though.
Man of Honour
In white, it's the only colour these new beasts look good in!
I don't believe the car has 360bhp from nothing more than and air filter and a chip, most 'tuners' like to use that number but the fact is most CSL's will only put out around 355bhp and their engine is somewhat more worked on. Most standard E46 M3's put out around 325bhp to 335bhp and a chip, if you're lucky with 100 cell cats will probably see 345bhp to 350bhp in real terms and in my experience the differences are very very small between a tweaked M and a standard one, not worth the money in my view either.
I have no idea how your brothers car goes or the details on what it's had done but I do not know of a chipped M3 anywhere that is MUCH quicker than a standard one. My first M3 was a very loose car and was a bit quicker than other M3's when side by side but mine was as I drove it out the showroom, some cars are just looser. I also ran it alongside a chipped M3 and my standard car was still quicker, so I wouldn't read too much into tuners wild claims of bhp gains on an engine that is already in a very high state of road tune.
Soldato
Very, very true.....and something so many people in here fail to comprehend.
Depends on the car really, you can't generalise. I would suggest cars like the M3 CSL, GT3/GT3 RS, 360 CS, 430 Scud, Caterham 7 and Exiges are mainly bought by proper petrol heads when new who drive them from new as they were meant to be driven. Uber saloons however are more often than not driven by people who want the best on their car list, but again not always. When I had my first M3 for example and joined BM3W most of the members then were petrol heads. They may no have worked on them with oily hands or added bits from Halfords to 'personalise' them but don't think for a minute they got driven with less vigour than their current owners, farm from it I would suggest.
Soldato
True, but the post I quoted did say "in most cases", and the cars you've listed are very much niche market cars which makes them an exception.
But everything you see about the C63 from those that have actually driven it (Sorry, I do not beleive you've driven a C63 yet until this thread kept quiet about it) says the C63 DOES have a hard edge and is not simply another soft Merc. Infact much of the high praise the C63 has is because its gained a hard edge.
I guess only you will ever know for sure but I am 90% sure your opinion on the C63 is formed from (On the surface, a reasonable) the assumption that the C63 is to the M3 what the C55 before it was the previous M3 and what the E55 was to the M5.
AMG have upped their game this time. It is not a wafty uber barge for fat execs anymore. It's a hardened sports saloon, like an M3. There is no way its even approaching twice as good.