Can I legally put a metal garage here in my back garden - grumpy neighbour....

[Gibbo]

Hi there


So yesterday was quite eventful, a couple of men came along to take down and remove the shed which all went well, here is an image of before the shed was taken away:






So shed is gone and I am stood in the back garden talking to my brother when the neighbour from the plot below shouts my name:






My house is and you can see right at the back of the garden is my double garage. The neighbour in question is house 39 his garden not only runs up to the side of ours but also has a narrow passage around the back, he has two sheds both of which are right up against the fence and is something I am not bothered by at all.

So now moving onto the issue, he is complaining his shed that was directly behind the shed taken down is rotten because water ran from the roof of the shed in our garden onto his as our plot is quite a bit higher than his. To which I responded well it is now gone and you cannot blame me for a shed which was there when we moved in and was something you should have mentioned to previous owner. He then starts well I guess your gonna put a car port or garage there and you cannot do that, it must be 5m away to which I responded with so I assume you will be moving your sheds then too, at this point he seemed to calm down for a few seconds, then complained about a building would block the light and if we put something there he will sue me, my brother was starting to get agitated and annoyed, bit of a lad in his day but the neighbour then retreated back indoors.

I've spoken to this neighbour previous and he and his wife have been friendly and never mention issue with the old shed and just were saying hello.


So I gave it an hour and I then walked around to his house and knocked on his door and ask him to explain to me calmly essentially what his issue was because to put it bluntly to start threatening to sue someone and having a rant is not how you approach someone or start a conversation and I would happily work with him on making sure anything we do build won't cause him any water damage. He seemed calmer and did say sorry and said he suffers a lot of pain and was having a bad moment, but he did keep also trying to see if you put something big there I will be onto my solicitor to have it taken down, I explained as its within 2M of the fence I can build an outbuilding with a height upto 2-2.5m right upto the fence and as long as nothing over hangs I believe I am legal, he would not have it and just kept saying it would be taken down, so I ask him to explain what his worry was and he tells me his shed is 54 years old and he had to repair it from inside due to water damage from our old shed and I said any garage I erect will have proper guttering to the front of our garage to drain to the front of our house.

He seemed at peace and we agreed on putting in new higher fence panels also, I offered to cover the cost and he was fine with that, though I shall do mine first let him see them and if he is still happy I shall then do his three panels also so they all match, he was not bothered by what colour they might be.


Here are pictures of how that corner in the garden looks now minus the old shed:











I have also emailed my solicitor as well to just get an official legal response.

To be honest I think I handled it well by not rising to the occaison and calling round to hear what his worries were, I also had a good conversation with his wife who did apologise about him and she did say they had no issues with us or the previous occupants and the last thing they ever wish is to fall out with us as they are an elderley couple, both retired.

But I am still a little annoyed inside as I don't appreciate some guy trying to lay down the law to speak by threatening he will sue and trying to suggest I must be at least 2m away and ideally 5m, bit of a hipocrit considering he has two sheds up against our fence.

You will see in the picture that the original border/bouncdary seems to be the brick wall that runs down between the fences two fences.

My plan is to put something like this in that area:
https://www.dancovershop.com/uk/product/metal-garage-338x576x243-m-proshed-anthracite.aspx



Now I believe from reading up about regulations that an outbuilding built from none flammable material can be placed right upto a fence on the basis it does not overhang, is under 2.5m in height and is smaller than 30m²,


But I wish to ask the knowledge of the OcUK forum can I put said garage in that location of those dimensions and should this neighbour decided he dislikes it can he legally force me to have it taken down?

I've been cleaning up out back there all day and not heard a beep out of them.

 

[Gibbo]

I'm not completely au fait with building regs but what you've proposed sounds perfectly fine as permitted development in my mind.

Good approach to going back to them and staying calm though, always helps with neighbours to not create enemies nearby! Though I probably would have quipped that if his shed was over 50 years old maybe that's part of the reason why it's damaged; don't entirely see what he was trying to gain by bringing it up unless he's seeing you splash money and thought he might get a shiny new shed out of you?

Hard to judge by the angle of the photo but looks like his shed might even be straddling the dividing wall, that could cause some issues for him depending on who has adopted what wall.

Yes I did think his shed might actually be on the boundary wall but I’m absolutely fine by that because ok he might a stolen an inch of my land in the far corner but that does not bother me and I’m not petty but unfortunately he seems to be petty and seems to think he can lay the law down.

I believe I am fine to put W building there and I’ll make sure it does not over hang the fence and I’ll also put up all new fencing as what is there now is all rotten and I will also make sure appropriate guttering is fitted.

When I do the fence panels and ask them if they want theirs doing the same I shall then explain my plans and how I will make sure nothing will over hang and guttering will be installed.

If he then creates a fuss saying it will block light (it won’t) as trees other side our garden are like 6-8M tall so they do block light and my plan is to also have the new garage be no higher than the current double garage and maybe a bit shorter.

So I’d he still makes a fuss I’ll give him a copy of the regulations and suggest he speak to his solicitor if he don’t want to accept it from myself.

 

[Gibbo]

Maybe he was trying to get out ahead of you to try and avoid you noticing the boundary discrepancy.

Don’t think so he seems a nice guy but seems to be a grumpy old know it all and seems genuinely worried about water damage which I assured anything I build won’t over hang and correct guttering will be installed to ensure any water drains into our garden and not his which seem to put him at ease but I took a dislike to his comments of it blocking light or looking ugly and he’s have me sued and pull it down.

Just not how you talk to people and it’s like he can have two sheds upto a fence but others cannot lol.

I just want to be 110% sure my plans are legal and hence me posting here as I’m still awaiting a response from solicitor and the local council site seems to suggest it would all be fine!

I just like to research and check in 100% correct and then if another confrontation happens I can tell him fine sue me.

 

[Gibbo]

Of you put bigger panels in het some post extensions. They will sell they at any decent fencing suppliers.

Thanks fencing guy coming next week so I’ll ask about post extensions so can fit maximum legal height fence panels which I assume is around 1.8m ?

 

[Gibbo]

You could always buy him a new shed.

I actually said to him if I had known you could have had ours, but also why should I buy him a new shed, what have I done wrong?

 

[Gibbo]

Is the double garage original when the house was built or is it an addition?

I don't think you can build multiples of 30m2 buildings without planning permission so you have to add up the floor space of the garage, subtract that from 30m2 and then build with whats left.

The 30m2 is the internal area not external so measure the garage internal area.

I thought it was upto 50% of the rear garden space could be used for outbuildings and I’d be well under that.

 

[Gibbo]

You might be right.
I have quickly looked at South-Norfolk planning portal and it states this;

the floor area of the garage is between 15 square metres and 30 square metres, provided the garage is at least one metre from any boundary, or it is constructed substantially of non-combustible materials.

Does your local authority state the 1 metre rule?

I'd phone your local planners. They are quite helpful.

They state 1m unless it’s built of none combustible materials hence why I’m dropping a metal garage there as one built from timber that close to a border is in breach of those guidelines.

From what I can gather from reading the Staffordshire moorlands council site is the guidelines are:

- Upto 50% of rear garden can be used for outbuildings.
- Outbuildings should be smaller than 30m2 if within 1-2m of a border
- Outbuildings if built from a none combustible material and less than 2.5m in height can be built right upto a border but must not touch or over hang.
- Must not be used for living accommodation or commercial uses
- Must be at the side or rear of property but not in front off


I think I am 100% covered and there is zero the neighbour can do if they try to object or complain I will of course try to work with them but if they just want to try and demand I can’t build on my own land when I legally can then I will just go ahead and totally blank that corner out so they can’t see in.

I’ll be reasonable to a point but just take a dislike to people who for whatever reason think they make the rules and can do as they wish but others have to do as they say.

 

[Gibbo]

Yes. Not sure if the outbuilding has to be a certain distance from the main house - couldn't find any reference to this on planning portal:

Edit - no such rule. As long as its not forward of the principle elevation (ie. Has to be in a back garden).

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/43/outbuildings#:~:text=Outbuildings are considered to be,wall forming the principal elevation.

• Maximum height of 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within two metres of a boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.
• No verandas, balconies or raised platforms (a platform must not exceed 0.3 metres in height)
• No more than half the area of land around the "original house"* would be covered by additions or other buildings.

Yes the double garage is at far rear of property and this would be a single garage going up next to that and distance wise from our property I’d say is probably 15-20m to the rear and I’d say with this garage our total use of our surrounding land would be most likely under 15% and most definetely less than 20%

When I do the fence panels I will discuss with neighbours I’d they want their 3 panels doing of same style and I’ll pay and it’s at this time I’ll also make them aware of my plans and how it won’t over hang and will have proper guttering if they still wish to make comments at this point and threaten to sue and have it taken down then I will just pass them documents from council, building regs and my solicitor asking to point out what law I’ve broken and we won’t speak to them again and like I say we won’t be missing much as we can’t see their house or garden anyway apart from their two sheds which with new fence panels and a garage there will be out of view and blocked off.

 

[Gibbo]

The run off of water is a problem, it looks like your bit all falls towards his he probably has a valid complaint.

However by filling the space up with a properly drained garage that drains into your aco channel at the front you are actually solving the issue for him.

Yep I even said to him anything I put there will be done correct.

I even said I’d be happy to rebuild that old border wall and replace all the fence panels at my cost and feel I’m being very accommodating considering his shed no doubt violates the true border anyway.

Also just out of curiosity are his two sheds breaking the law by being upto the border and made from timber or are they two small to be classed as a fire hazard.

Even if they are breaking the law how sheds are fine by me because they cause me no harm and there are other houses around so you have to expect to see other houses and sheds if you want a view of just hills and country side you need to build a house or move.

Maybe it is jealousy because in his ramblings I could swear he tried to suggest he does not have a mortgage but we do and that gives him more rights than us. I did not respond at all because we also don’t have a mortgage either and own outright but probably upset him more.

Hopefully he will be fine if not then tough luck for him I guess.

 

[Gibbo]

@Gibbo his looks fine but there are many convoluted rules out there depending on planning authority and what’s already been built.

Generally it’s 2500mm high within 2000mm of a boundary.

I had the local planners out to make me take one course of bricks off a wall I built to keep it under 2000mm.

What’s the saying it’s easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission???

Yep, I shall be doing it just wanted to make sure I’m in the right but hey he might be fine once fence panels and wall repair done.

 

[Gibbo]

Guy just sounds like a grumpy old *******. Probably thinks he can get you to pay for all sorts too if you have a ferrari . Threatening lawyers isn't the best idea in the first place!

Wouldn't it class as a car port or extension if its tied onto your existing garage though or in close proximity to? Is it still within the 30m2 if so? That would be the only thing I'd double check

Well it won’t be connected to that garage and will be it’s own independent building with its own guttering. It will be 15-20m squared. The current one is no doubt over 40m squared.

But from what I could tell from council website and various building planning sites you can use upto 50% of your garden space for out buildings and I’d be looking at under 20% by adding this additional garage.

 

[Gibbo]

I think if you put a black garage there, you'll probably never hear the end of his claims of it soaking up light. If you do get a black garage, paint the walls that face him white - it might be enough to appease him.

I get the impression you're tiptoeing around him while he just does what he likes with no repercussions. I understand why you're doing what you're doing, as you want to avoid an expensive garage being torn down. But I'd suggest to him that he moves his shed away from the fence to avoid future problems. After all, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

To be honest I try to be nice and reasonable but at the same time if I’m totally following the law and not over stepping it well my patience has limits and I’ll tell him to do one.

Here is a picture taken further back showing the current garage as can be seen there is ample space in the rear and his has is to the left where you can see the shed just behind my fence and his other shed on other side fence behind my wheel barrow.

 

[Gibbo]

@Gibbo Don't think you're doing anything wrong with that at all. It's not a permanent structure, I'm assuming its height will be around what's there already and it is replacing a previous non-permanent structure. Neighbour is being weird.

Yes height will be under 2m at edges and under 2.5m at centre apex.

It will be built from none combustible materials to allow it to be built upto the border.

It will have guttering and won’t over hang mine or his fences.

Here is my council guidelines:
https://www.staffsmoorlands.gov.uk/...t_Works_Information_Sheet.pdf?m=1486052122200

GARAGE
The garage is detached and the floor area is less than 30m2 and is to be sited more than 1 metre away from the edge of the land you own unless it is constructed substantially of non-combustible material.


My local council does not even mention height but from what I can tell from researching if it’s within 2m of the boundary border then max height is 2.5m but if it’s 2m away from
Borders it can be upto 4m in height.

Im gonna be putting something there probably the metal garage I posted in OP but am also searching for other options too.

Our plot is a higher elevation compared to houses on the left so no doubt his water issues and concerns over loss of light but it’s natural lay of the land.

 

[Gibbo]

Anything within 1 metres cannot be higher than 2 metres adjacent to the ground.

Anything at exactly 1 metre can be 2.5m at its highest.

After that it can go up to 4 metres tall however eaves have to be at maximum 3m high or below.

So you cannot build 2.5m high and put it right up against the boundary without planning permission.

So he is right and wrong and so are you.

You can easily download the file from your local councils website in regards to what is and isn't allowed under permitted development rights.

So you can either have it 2 metres high or put it 1 metre back and have it 2.5 metres high at the sides if it's a flat roof.

If it's not flat then you can angle it and keep within the guidelines I mentioned previously.

I have a picture on my phone which explains it all clearly. However it's not hosted anywhere for me to link.

Are you sure that is correct!
The regs seem to stipulate that maximum height is 2m at the edges but it can apex to a maximum of 2.5m in centre of within 1m of the boundary.

Not that it makes much difference anyway as just stick with a flat 2m roof but plan was to be around 1.8-2.0m and side with an apex roof that reaches close to 2.5m in centre.

The neighbour was trying to claim I can’t build anything within 5m but that rules obviously does not apply to his two sheds lol.

I posted up the link from Moorlands council but they do not mention height but I have emailed them with what I plan to do and shall call them to just confirm.

 

[Gibbo]

Does that work

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AjMaYHWat1Ypmid18

@Gibbo

Thank you that seems to suggest what I’m saying if upto to the border then a max of 2m at edges and 2.5m max at centre apex of roof.

 

[Gibbo]

You're not in a conservation area are you or are there any specific restrictive covenants on the deeds?

I don’t think so our house and our neighbour next to us who is very friendly we’re the original farm houses main land, the farmer sold the patch of land my house resides on in the 1960’s for like £2000 and the house next door is the original farmhouse with an extension as he is a builder and his house is stunning, 7 bedrooms and huge amount of land, he did offer me the original 5 bedroom house at an incredible price but I did not want to share a driveway even though we are very good friends and he has been doing all my building work for me, he also did tell me the grumpy neighbour was talking out of his rear lol and if I wanted too I could even remove the fence panels and post and build a garage right upto the original party wall but I want to try and keep all parties happy but if he tries to insist I can’t have what I want I’ll tell him sod off and build anyway.

 

[Gibbo]

Yes, the The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 (as amended) as the title suggests is England and Wales, I rather arrogantly assumed we were talking about England not Scotland. Scotland does have its own legislation and working the South of England means I have never read the Scottish legislation.

@Gibbo if you are in Scotland please ignore me as my comments refer to England and Wales not Scotland or NI for that matter.

Dropped you a PM if that is Ok please buddy.

 

[Gibbo]

I have found this passage in my deeds:

"The purchasers hereby jointly and severally covenant with vendor as follows:-
To maintain in good order the stock-proof fence fronting the land and premises hereby conveyed and recently erected by the vendor not to permit or suffer to be done on the property hereby conveyed or use the buildings situate on the land hereby conveyed or any part thereof for act matter or thing which may be or become a nuisance annoyance or damage to the vendor sucessors in title or assigns owner or owners for the time being of adjoining lands and property retained by the vendor and shall not use any of the existing buildings or erect any building on the land hereby conveyed to be used as a slaughterhouse or to use any of the land hereby conveyed as a caravan site"

"It is hereby agreed and declared that the purchasers and their successors in title shall not by virtue of this conveyance acquire any right of light or air which would prejudice the free use and enjoyment of any adjoining or neighbouring land of the vendor for building or any other purposes and that any enjoyment of light or air by the purchasers or their successors in title from or over any adjoining or neighbouring land of the vendor shall be deemed to be by the consent of the vendor."


What does the above mean or has it got nothing to do with what I am planning?

A lot of this legal jargon makes not much sense to me but I am reading it that myself and my neighbours can build what they wish on their land for their own enjoyments on the basis its not a slaughterhouse or used as a caravan site, is that correct, so my garage does not breach the above?

 

[Gibbo]

It's talking about right to light meaning you cannot block out the sun.

I doubt your garage will do this if your planning it to be 2m at the sides as you already have a large fence in situ and previously had a similarly sized shed in place.

Albeit sheds aren't permanent structures and brick buildings have different rules governing them based on size, etc.

You may get away with a wooden garage if a brick version is deemed unsuitable. As it's not deemed a permanent structure. Albeit it could be made stronger and better than a brick equivalent.

Thank you, I think wood is out the question due to proximity to the border/fence, though we did have a shed made from wood their previous and as can be seen the neighbour has two sheds in place.

 

[Gibbo]

has the neighbour complained about car noise yet ? sounds like he's going to be a right pain in the arse.

Nope, can't see how he could anyway, we have active farms around us with tractors going up and down the road, plus old land rovers and when they go pass well you do hear it, plus we have cows mooing and owls making noise at night. I doubt a noise complaint would get anywhere, none of my cars are overly loud and the loudest is the Ferrari which is totally standard and I only start it up in awake hours so to speak.

He has been quite pleasant before but only spoken before, when I do the fences I shall judge his character more, maybe he is just really worried about water and upset how his shed rotted and took it out on me even though I have now removed what was causing said issue.

Plus our neighbour at 62 is a builder and often wacking or smashing something, so I think noise is something the local residents don't notice or complain about.