Canadian Grand Prix 2010, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal - Race 8/19

[sunama]

The tyre is already pretty much up to temperature when it comes out of the blankets. It only takes a couple of corners for them to be fully up to racing temp.

Unless things have changed this year, this is not correct. Tyre warmers cannot even come close to the sort of temperature required for tyres to reach their optimum. Pre-2010, it would normally take a full lap, if not longer, for tyres to reach full operating temperature. Obviously softer tyres should reach operating temperature faster than a harder tyre, so perhaps 2010 is different.

A link to the in/out lap times for Turkey would be great. Unless 2010 has seen a massive change in the way tyres operate, I can't see how an out-lap can be faster than an in-lap.

 

[Alibaba99]

Unless things have changed this year, this is not correct. Tyre warmers cannot even come close to the sort of temperature required for tyres to reach their optimum. Pre-2010, it would normally take a full lap, if not longer, for tyres to reach full operating temperature. Obviously softer tyres should reach operating temperature faster than a harder tyre, so perhaps 2010 is different.

A link to the in/out lap times for Turkey would be great. Unless 2010 has seen a massive change in the way tyres operate, I can't see how an out-lap can be faster than an in-lap.

The big difference this year is the lack of refuelling. Last year you had cars on knackered tyres but with no fuel compared to a just pitted car heavy with fuel. This year you have a car on old tyres compared to a car on fresh tyres, but both weigh the same. Fresh tyre car is quicker.

Tyre warm-up comes from Brundles commentary. The only time cars are on cold tyres is during the start where they have cooled down from being out of the tyre warmers for a lap plus standing time.

 

[p0ss3s3d]

Tyres are usually more or less working temp as they come out of the blankets, they cool slightly leaving the pits, but teams typically compensate for this. The problem is if you over compensate you can soften the rubber too much and you get marbles and tyre wear at a much greater rate.

It's finding a balance between immediete performance and tyre wear.

 

[FrankJH]

The big difference this year is the lack of refuelling. Last year you had cars on knackered tyres but with no fuel compared to a just pitted car heavy with fuel. This year you have a car on old tyres compared to a car on fresh tyres, but both weigh the same. Fresh tyre car is quicker.

Tyre warm-up comes from Brundles commentary. The only time cars are on cold tyres is during the start where they have cooled down from being out of the tyre warmers for a lap plus standing time.

I agree with your scenario (about fresh tyres being faster this year) - but they wont be fully up to temp either, even with tyre warmers the working temps of f1 tyres are a lot hotter than the blankets can produce (and remember they would cool down slightly as they remove them several seconds before the car rolls to a stop)

In years gone by in-laps where hugely faster (but that was definitely to do with there being no fuel in the tanks at this point)

So much for Hamilton not being able to look after his tires

Good find.

This track has always suited Hamilton so the discussion still has some weight imo - lets see at tracks which are less "blast at full pelt and stop hard" whether his tyres still last as well, I very much doubt this to be the case

You can fairly accurately judge somebody's F1 knowledge level based upon their opinion of LH's driving style.

I guess Martin Brundle and Ted Kravitz to name just two people know nothing about F1 then.

Thats highly amusing (and yes they both have commented about how his tyre wear has been a lot greater than other drivers in the last few races)

It was quite amusing during one of the post race phases earlier this year when a McLaren mechanic denied any difference in the tyre wear, yet when a tyre from each car was shown for the camera it was blatantly obvious to anyone one was far worn far worse than the other

 

[UncleBensSauce]

Will be interesting with the ban on warmers next season then.

What they going todo? Leave them in the pitlane and hope for sun?!

 

[Alibaba99]

This track has always suited Hamilton so the discussion still has some weight imo - lets see at tracks which are less "blast at full pelt and stop hard" whether his tyres still last as well, I very much doubt this to be the case

I seem to remember him doing quite well at Turkey, a track where a nice understeer balance is required to make maximum use of turn 8, which is the complete opposite of Lewis' preferred tale wagging setup. One of the reasons why Massa has done so well there in the past, a driver who likes understeer in a car setup to understeer.

 

[Begbie]

One of the first races in a while, that I have watched, and been pretty much gripped all the way through.

 

[Dutch Guy]

Will be interesting with the ban on warmers next season then.

What they going todo? Leave them in the pitlane and hope for sun?!

Have the engineers stand around the tyres with a hair dryer in one hand and a laptop in the other hand

I think it will be interesting to see them running the first laps on cold tyres next year.

 

[dannyjo22]

The one thing I found interesting in this race which no one seems to have picked up on is how many times EJ made reference to JB being told to give back the place to hamilton at turkey.

He's obviously been given the nod about something which is why he kept banging on about team orders existing. Even later on in the weekend he mentioned how unhappy JB was at having to yield.

Shame there isn't a bit more honesty in these things. I can understand them asking JB to yield if he miss-interpreted the fuel save message.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

The one thing I found interesting in this race which no one seems to have picked up on is how many times EJ made reference to JB being told to give back the place to hamilton at turkey.

He's obviously been given the nod about something which is why he kept banging on about team orders existing. Even later on in the weekend he mentioned how unhappy JB was at having to yield.

Shame there isn't a bit more honesty in these things. I can understand them asking JB to yield if he miss-interpreted the fuel save message.

It was a bit underhanded anyway. Hamilton had dominated the whole weekend and was pushing the bulls hard - Button just slipped passed at the very last minute.

Ross Brawn as usual asked the best question - "What exactly is a team order"? I know the rules, but as usual they need clarification.

 

[dannyjo22]

It was a bit underhanded anyway. Hamilton had dominated the whole weekend and was pushing the bulls hard - Button just slipped passed at the very last minute.

Ross Brawn as usual asked the best question - "What exactly is a team order"? I know the rules, but as usual they need clarification.

I don't think it was underhanded I just don't think he had been properly briefed on the mclaren way. I think he now knows the score.

 

[Demon]

Do you have any links to the data on the in and out lap times for that race?

Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out laps simply because the tyres are much warmer and the driver (on the in lap) already has a good idea of where the limits of the tyres are. On the out lap, the driver is not only warming up his tyres but also finding the limits of the tyres. Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out lap, unless of course the driver, during the in lap, had "issues".

A link to the in/out lap times would be gratefully appreciated.

As I said, F1 Fanatic..
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/...to-stop-hamilton-turkish-grand-prix-analysis/

92.5 the lap before the pit, 91.5 immediately after the pit for Lewis, And Ted K said live that the teams knew the outlaps of earlier stoppers where quicker, so the data supported it all..

 

[Demon]

The one thing I found interesting in this race which no one seems to have picked up on is how many times EJ made reference to JB being told to give back the place to hamilton at turkey.

He's obviously been given the nod about something which is why he kept banging on about team orders existing. Even later on in the weekend he mentioned how unhappy JB was at having to yield.

Shame there isn't a bit more honesty in these things. I can understand them asking JB to yield if he miss-interpreted the fuel save message.

I missed that, JB was given the order over the radio to yield!! I was skipping through the pre-race stuff (I'd recorded it), I heard the extra comms chatter about Lewis being told to back off, and asking if he did would JB pass him, and was told no, JB didn't get any such orders, so cruised up and went for the overtake, but Lewis reacted and put the squeeze on JB who either yielded or collided (A bit aggressive of LH tbh).. I didn't realise JB was told to yield, I thought he was just reacting to Lewis on the inside and giving him room, as LH had done for him..

Surely if they told JB to yield, that's a team order, and that would upset the FIA?

 

[Baboonanza]

As I said, F1 Fanatic..
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/...to-stop-hamilton-turkish-grand-prix-analysis/

92.5 the lap before the pit, 91.5 immediately after the pit for Lewis, And Ted K said live that the teams knew the outlaps of earlier stoppers where quicker, so the data supported it all..

I too disagree with sunamas assumption that Lewis's inlap would have been faster than Webber's outlap. However, in hindsight they still should have tried it.

Webber in particular seems to like a couple of slower laps to warm fresh tires up (he did it this weekend and he's done it earlier in the season too). By keeping Lewis out McLaren would have forced Webber to push on his new tires and who knows? Maybe he would have made a mistake, maybe he wouldn't, but it's the sort of thing great drivers should always be trying to do - put pressure on the people in front. But computers can't help with that, and over-reliance on technology is maybe McLarens strategic weakness.

 

[Demon]

I too disagree with sunamas assumption that Lewis's inlap would have been faster than Webber's outlap. However, in hindsight they still should have tried it.

Webber in particular seems to like a couple of slower laps to warm fresh tires up (he did it this weekend and he's done it earlier in the season too). By keeping Lewis out McLaren would have forced Webber to push on his new tires and who knows? Maybe he would have made a mistake, maybe he wouldn't, but it's the sort of thing great drivers should always be trying to do - put pressure on the people in front. But computers can't help with that, and over-reliance on technology is maybe McLarens strategic weakness.

While I agree, relying on computers all the time is daft, in this case, it's almost water tight, He had Vettel close behind on new tyres (and lapping quicker), so it wasn't just about trying to leap frog webber, as to not lose a place to Vettel..

There was no plausible scenario other then wishful thinking, and that really isn't a good way to make decisions..

There are loads of situations where they 100% got it wrong, however this isn't..

 

[sunama]

I don't think it was underhanded I just don't think he had been properly briefed on the mclaren way. I think he now knows the score.

Yep.

He now knows that we they say, "converve fuel", it actually means, "hold your position".

 

[Mr Jack]

I missed that, JB was given the order over the radio to yield!!

There was no order over the radio for JB to yield, nor any indication from anyone who knows anything that he was given such an order. They were both told to conserve fuel; and JB was reminded, firmly, of that after LH had re-passed. But apart from EJ flapping his jaw in his usual fashion I don't think there's any sensible reason not to believe what we saw on track.

 

[sunama]

As I said, F1 Fanatic..
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/05/...to-stop-hamilton-turkish-grand-prix-analysis/

92.5 the lap before the pit, 91.5 immediately after the pit for Lewis, And Ted K said live that the teams knew the outlaps of earlier stoppers where quicker, so the data supported it all..

I see your point. Its not clear though.

The 92.5s lap is the complete lap BEFORE the lap he pitted on.
The 111.2s lap is the actual in-lap, including the stationary period.
The 91.5s lap is the out-lap.

There is an argument that on the actual in-lap, a driver can absolutely slaughter his tyres and wring out the fastest lap time, so one might assume that the in-lap might be faster than the penultimate lap.

I can see your point though.

In any case, it would appear that the advantage/disadvantage is minimal (less than 1s), UNLESS the car in front is holding you up...which Mark Webber was doing to Hamilton in Turkey. Bearing this in mind, I still say that Hamilton should've taken a chance and stayed out for an extra lap. He had nothing to lose.

Food for thought.

 

[sunama]

But apart from EJ flapping his jaw in his usual fashion I don't think there's any sensible reason not to believe what we saw on track.

So, you honestly believe that there are no team-orders?

Dude, seriously, you cannot run an F1 team without team-orders. This was stated by both Coulthard (ex-driver) and Jordan (ex-team owner).

Added to this Hamilton looked totally p'd off after the race.

Also notice how quickly Button dropped back, after Hamilton re-overtook him.

All of the above suggests that "conserve fuel" is unquestionably a code phrase and that Hamilton was of the opinion that Button would not overtake him as the team order ("converve fuel") had been given. He also explicityly asked his radio-man, if Button would overtake him. He was told, "no". The radio guy knew this because he knew that team orders were now in play. When Button decided to ignore the team-order (for whatever reason), Hamilton was not happy, which explains why he looked unhappy, immediately after the race, even though he had just won it.

Every action/opinion regarding what happens shows that team orders are in play...and with so much at stake, why shouldn't they be?

 

[rpstewart]

I've been too busy to check the whole thread so I don't know if this has been covered or not.

I see that all the Marlboro related stuff has been removed from the Ferraris but to me it looks like they've also ditched the light red paint job and gone back to a more traditional pre-96 darker Italian racing red. Has anyone else spotted that or am I just going even madder?