Canadian Grand Prix 2010, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal - Race 8/19

sunama said:
So, you honestly believe that there are no team-orders?

Dude, seriously, you cannot run an F1 team without team-orders. This was stated by both Coulthard (ex-driver) and Jordan (ex-team owner).

Added to this Hamilton looked totally p'd off after the race.

Also notice how quickly Button dropped back, after Hamilton re-overtook him.

All of the above suggests that "conserve fuel" is unquestionably a code phrase and that Hamilton was of the opinion that Button would not overtake him as the team order ("converve fuel") had been given. He also explicityly asked his radio-man, if Button would overtake him. He was told, "no". The radio guy knew this because he knew that team orders were now in play. When Button decided to ignore the team-order (for whatever reason), Hamilton was not happy, which explains why he looked unhappy, immediately after the race, even though he had just won it.

Every action/opinion regarding what happens shows that team orders are in play...and with so much at stake, why shouldn't they be?
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Especially after seeing what happened to the Red Bulls. I couldn't believe what Button was trying to do.

I did enjoy Canada when Button started catching Hamilton and to prove a point Hamilton put in some fastest laps.

Button needs to sort out his qualifying. He is very consistent during the race, but as ever his qualifying seriously lets him down.
 
sunama said:
So, you honestly believe that there are no team-orders?
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Of course there are team orders; what I dispute is that Button was ordered to let Hamilton retake him as opposed to simply overtaken on the track.

Also notice how quickly Button dropped back, after Hamilton re-overtook him.
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Yes, he did. I put that down to the fact he was being strongly told by his team that he needed to conserve fuel, and Hamilton had made it damn obvious that (a) he could take back the position if needed and (b) he wasn't going to yield. If Button had fought for the position he'd have thrown away his race, and Hamilton's, by running both their cars out of fuel and leaving them sitting ducks in the closing laps. Button is too intelligent a driver to get involved in a situation like that.

All of the above suggests that "conserve fuel" is unquestionably a code phrase and that Hamilton was of the opinion that Button would not overtake him as the team order ("converve fuel") had been given. He also explicityly asked his radio-man, if Button would overtake him. He was told, "no".
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. He was told to conserve fuel, and told that Button had received the same instruction; which I think was clearly telling him that Button was not going to zoom past him on a better fuel mix. I do not recall that he explicitly asked whether Button would overtake him.

I also don't agree that "conserve fuel" was a "code phrase". I think they actually needed to conserve fuel, and it's pretty obvious that's not going to happen if they're battling each other on track.
 
Mr Jack said:
I also don't agree that "conserve fuel" was a "code phrase". I think they actually needed to conserve fuel, and it's pretty obvious that's not going to happen if they're battling each other on track.
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I also think that teams are using the conserve fuel stement as a team-order, Red Bull did it by telling Webber a lap earlier that he had to conserve fuel so that Vettel could pass him and Hamilton and Button were told that.

Strangely enough there was not one mention to the drivers on the Canada race even though there was no safety car, why would they suddenly have enough fuel and not in the race before that?
 
Hang on, there are people who think team mates race in F1?

I must admit I was dissapointed the button / hamilton show didn't last longer than a few turns in Turkey, was some of the best wheel to wheel racing I've seen for years.

I guess both of them have to show their faces back in the team garage though. We don't know if he just fell over hamilton or thought he'd get away with one cheeky go (although I couldn't imagine them being pals if he got the win like that), we also don't know if hamilton got back past on skill or if button had been told to back off. I'd guess he fell over him, decided to go for it in the heat of the moment, then realising the problem didn't make it hard for hamilton to get past (and he knows he'd be trying!)

I think it's fairly obvious though that the laps after the overtaking button wasn't trying to make another move. Maybe we'll read the real answer in someone's book in 10 years time.
 
Telescopi said:
I'd guess he [Button] fell over him, decided to go for it in the heat of the moment, then realising the problem didn't make it hard for hamilton to get past (and he knows he'd be trying!)

I think it's fairly obvious though that the laps after the overtaking button wasn't trying to make another move.
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I'd go along with that.
 
Mr Jack said:
I dunno, maybe they learnt from their mistakes?
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Yep.

1. Not to make it so obvious that team-orders are in play.
2. If someone on the radio says to you, "Conserve fuel", you hold formation.
3. (This one applies only to Webber): Vettel is the lead driver. He is the future and as such, if we ask you to move over (by asking you to "Conserve fuel"), you follow that order to the letter. And if you don't like this deal, you can move to Renault where you will be fighting for midfield places.

;)
 
I don't know why everyone thinks Vettel is the future. It just seems to be based upon media hyperbole and nothing of substance. Yes Monza 2008 was terrific but more because everyone else ****ed up their qualifying. I can't think of any other performance that stands out.
 
NathanE said:
I don't know why everyone thinks Vettel is the future. It just seems to be based upon media hyperbole and nothing of substance. Yes Monza 2008 was terrific but more because everyone else ****ed up their qualifying. I can't think of any other performance that stands out.
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I would agree. He is above average for sure, but nothing more. He makes too many mistakes.
 
el_dazza said:
Haven't read the entire thread, but what was the general consensus on Hamilton being released right into Alonso? (Or is that a stupid question :o) - was ignored by the commentators as well, funnily enough!
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It's not mentioned anywhere because it's not an issue. Happens all the time in F1 alone. Canada has a particularly strong history of side-by-side pit lane action anyway.
 
el_dazza said:
Haven't read the entire thread, but what was the general consensus on Hamilton being released right into Alonso? (Or is that a stupid question :o) - was ignored by the commentators as well, funnily enough!
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It was borderline, but not unsafe. He was released a fraction after Alonso, but got some serious wheelspin. It was mentioned by the commentators and by Hamilton in the press conference.
 
CaptainRAVE said:
I would agree. He is above average for sure, but nothing more. He makes too many mistakes.
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Makes too many mistakes, is more immature than Hamilton or Alonso were at that age, and damages his cars. I'm also still yet to see him overtake anyone in anger when it matters. Whereas Hamilton checked that box off on the very first couple corners of his first F1 race.
 
Re: Vettel.

Every team NEEDS a talisman to centre its efforts around.

If you go back through the years you will see that ever successful team had a talisman around which it centred its efforts.

2009 - RedBull were focusing on Vettel
2008 - Hamilton
2007 - McLaren split their efforts in 2 and as a result Kimi won. McLaren learnt a big lesson there. As the season was closing, Ferrari began to focus their efforts increasingly on Kimi. They also made him the most expensive driver in F1, which is a strong indication of their commitment to him.
2006 - Ferrari (MS), Alonso (Renault)
2005 - Ferrari (MS), Alonso (Renault)
2004-2000 - Ferrari (MS)
...
1998/9 - McLaren (Hakinnen).

and so on.

the exception to the above rule would be

2009 - BrawnGP (equal drivers)

In summary, if you want to win a title, you need to focus your efforts on a single driver (at some point during the season) and hope he pulls through.

RedBull have identified Vettel as their talisman (for the next few years at least) and now they are going to focus everything on him to give him the best chance to win the title, for them. Mark Webber is fully aware of this, but his only other alternative would be to join Renault, where he would stand less chance of winning a race than he would at RedBull.

RedBull are doing this not because they love Vettel (or some other strange reason), but because they believe he is their best chance of winning titles in the next 3 years or so.

You may feel that Vettel isn't "all that", but RedBull need a tallisman and with Alonso, Hamilton (and probably Button), engaged with other teams, Vettel is their best hope of winning the title in the next few years. Kubica is probably the only other "talisman" type driver in F1 right now and obviously RedBull feel Vettel is a better bet.

The only thing I would do differently is perhaps prise Hamilton away from McLaren. Other than that, RedBull are doing exactly the right thing.
 
Vettel isn't going to win any WDC anytime soon, he's quick when things are going right but when they aren't he can't pull out anything special.

Hamilton can, and does - look at qualifying for Canada.
Button does - look at his inspired (and yes, risky) tyre choices at wet/dry races.

Button, Alonso and Hamilton are all different but they have what it takes to add that little extra to the package. Has Vettel shown he has that?
 
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