Canadian Grand Prix 2010, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Montreal - Race 8/19

[Hxc]

I'm slightly confused; why has Kubica got the lap recod when it's not faster than the previous record? Is it due to a change in circuit layout or something?

(http://www.thenews.pl/sport/artykul133484_kubica-sets-lap-record-at-canada-gp.html)

He sounds very Kimi there too. "I don't care"

 

[sunama]

I hear a lot of talk about "race trim" etc, but I was of the belief that the car could not change after qualifying due to parc ferme conditions. So why do people say the McLaren has the better race speeds when the Red Bulls are clearly much quicker in qually?

The McLaren seems to be very close, performance-wise across the full race distance. However, in qualifying, when low fuel is being used, the RedBull is significantly faster.

The pole position lap from Hamilton 2 days ago, was definitely a 'Hamilton Special' and was further aided by using softer tyres, than those used by RedBulls.

In qualifying, for some reason, the RedBull car is able to run low to the ground, which increases downforces and cornering speeds. When the other cars (including McLaren) run their car low in qualifying, once the car is loaded with fuel (for the race), the car bottom's out in the race, due to the weight - not good. The RedBull, for whatever reason, is not afflicted with this problem, who can run their car low in qualifying, yet not bottom out when the tanks are full.

I'm sure that there are other reasons, but ride height does seem to be a major reason for RedBull's superiority in qualifying.

 

[dannyjo22]

I'll agree with you to a certain extent - this year Massa (for whatever reason), seems beaten. There doesnt seem to be any fight. Where as in previous seasons he was a force to be reckoned with. Had the old Massa turned up, along with Alonso, Ferrari would've easily had the 2nd best driver pairing of 2010.

So what's changed?
.

Nothings changed, he just has a team mate thats the best on the grid and that is hungry for more, not like raikkonen who was hungry for beer. Kimi should have won atleast two world titles with ferrari but his interest never got going in any season til the mid point.

He could have got a winning car at macca or red bull but when he wouldn't lower his demands you knew how hungry he still was. One of the biggest wastes of talent in modern F1.

You can fairly accurately judge somebody's F1 knowledge level based upon their opinion of LH's driving style.

Bridgestone have said differently and I think they know. Many of the pundits are obviously getting that info on the quiet as well from mclaren although the team obviously won't publically say it.

He's nowhere near as bad as he was that's obvious.

 

[NathanE]

Bridgestone have said differently and I think they know. Many of the pundits are obviously getting that info on the quiet as well from mclaren although the team obviously won't publically say it.

He's nowhere near as bad as he was that's obvious.

I'd bet money Bridgestone's rep was speaking in pig-English as usual.

 

[Baboonanza]

I think it's likely that Hamilton has just got better recently. Being in the same team as Button the difference was fairly obvious earlier on in the season, but less so now. Also having access to Button's telemetry would be useful for learing how to change his style to preserve the tires.

Don't forget that before to this year tire wear just wasn't that much of an issue since:
a) Pitstops were primarily determined by refuelling and tire wear was less important than fuel-load and track position after pitting.
b) Running full on fuel both increases tire wear and magnifies the advantage of fresh tires over worn tires.

So before this season Lewis may have eaten tires but didn't care because the extra speed was worth it. This year the equation has changed and maybe it's taken him a little while to catch-up, assisted by having a team-mate to learn from. Plus in earlier races he was having to constantly push and pass cars which would have amplified the difference. Clearly he is now fairly good at preserving tires or he wouldn't have been able to pull out such a fast lap at the end of yesterdays race.

 

[sunama]

Nothings changed, he just has a team mate thats the best on the grid and that is hungry for more, not like raikkonen who was hungry for beer. Kimi should have won atleast two world titles with ferrari but his interest never got going in any season til the mid point.

In 2007, Massa was in the hunt for the title race, until the end of the season. He fighting. His team-mate won the title.

In 2008, Massa was pushing hard and did well. He showed a lot of fight.

In 2009, until he had the accident, there was further improvement and this time around, he appeared to be the lead driver. Then he had the accident.

In 2010, he started out of the blocks like the old Massa. Yes, he is not in the same class as Alonso, but then few drivers are. However, he was able to finish right behind his team-mate, in the opening race.

Since then, we have seen a downward trend. We have seen Alonso show his team, just how fast the Ferrari can be driven. Perhaps Massa is getting mentally beaten here (thats the only explanation I can come up with). I think yesterday's race was Massa's worst performance this year where he was actually lapped by his team-mate in an identical car. When was the last time Massa was lapped by his team-mate? (perhaps someone can dig that statistic up).

The problem with Massa is a major one for Ferrari as they are relying on Massa to bring them the Constructors' title, both this year and next. Alonso is delivering the performances which Ferrari expected (he is 15 points behind the WDC leader, ie. 6 points in old points, in a car which really shouldnt be in 4th place), but Massa doesnt seem capable of touching either of the McLarens or RedBulls, which he must start doing.

A lot of people seem to have written Ferrari off, but given the above stat (for Alonso), if Ferrari can give him a better car (not necessarily as good as the McLaren/RedBull), he can definitely finish in the top 2 this year.

 

[sunama]

I think it's likely that Hamilton has just got better recently.

He has improved, but then you would expect that from someone who is still a relative rookie.

Being in the same team as Button the difference was fairly obvious earlier on in the season, but less so now. Also having access to Button's telemetry would be useful for learing how to change his style to preserve the tires.

Looking at your team-mate's telemetry always helps but little has changed between the opening races and what we are seeing now, from Button and Hamilton.

The difference was that in those opening races, where we had wet races, Button was reading the race well and creating opportunities for himself. Hamilton on the other hand, was allowing his team to make the strategic decisions - McLaren who are abysmal in this area. Even despite his team making those poor decisions, we saw him rampantly overtaking people and breaking all sorts of records in the process. The problem remained that his team couldnt make strategic decisions as well as Button.

To show that little has changed, in the opening race of the season, we saw a dry race and low behold, Hamilton outperformed Button. This pattern has been seen in pretty much every single race this season.

Recently, what we have seen are dry races and low and behold, Hamilton is consistently beating Button, one again. I promise you, throw in some rain and some tricky strategic decision and the balance of power will shift right back into Button's favour. Nothing has changed. Hamilton is faster, but Button is better at reading a race from a strategic point of view.

 

[Baboonanza]

He has improved, but then you would expect that from someone who is still a relative rookie.

To be clear, everything I posted was in regard to tire wear (perhaps my first sentence wasn't very clear on that, but it's what the last few posts were about).

I don't necessarily disagree with you, though I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that both McLaren and Hamilton are completely incapable of learning from their mistakes.

 

[sunama]

Hamilton/McLaren can indeed learn from their mistakes, but IMO, they didnt really make any mistakes. They just made very poor strategic decisions and they continue to do so. IMO nothing has changed.

At Turkey, RedBull responded to Hamilton's pitstop, resulting in Hamilton pitting on the same lap as Webber. This allowed Webber to stay ahead. Had it been Senna (and maybe Button) in Hamilton's position, the moment they saw that Webber was also pitting on the same lap, they would've opted to stay out for an extra lap, in order to have a chance of leap-frogging Webber, into 1st place, after the pit-stops.

For whatever reason, McLaren/Hamilton just arent fast enough when it comes to making these strategic decisions. Senna was legendary in this area and it didnt take him 3.5 years to "learn from his mistakes". Button has also shown this year (and in the past), that his strategic decisions are top notch.

 

[Demon]

Hamilton/McLaren can indeed learn from their mistakes, but IMO, they didnt really make any mistakes. They just made very poor strategic decisions and they continue to do so. IMO nothing has changed.

At Turkey, RedBull responded to Hamilton's pitstop, resulting in Hamilton pitting on the same lap as Webber. This allowed Webber to stay ahead. Had it been Senna (and maybe Button) in Hamilton's position, the moment they saw that Webber was also pitting on the same lap, they would've opted to stay out for an extra lap, in order to have a chance of leap-frogging Webber, into 1st place, after the pit-stops.

For whatever reason, McLaren/Hamilton just arent fast enough when it comes to making these strategic decisions. Senna was legendary in this area and it didnt take him 3.5 years to "learn from his mistakes". Button has also shown this year (and in the past), that his strategic decisions are top notch.

Your example of Turkey is incorrect, although Brundle did say several times Lewis should just stay out and leap frog Webber, Ted K came on and said the data showed peoples outlaps on new tyres was much quicker then expected, so that wasn't an option, and the other 2 second stuck wheel nut issue is not something you can legislate for.

But I get what you are saying, although clearly Lewis and Button have both won world titles, and both have a lot to learn of each other.. perhaps they can both develop into truly stand out drivers..

 

[Mr Jack]

We have seen Alonso show his team, just how fast the Ferrari can be driven. Perhaps Massa is getting mentally beaten here (thats the only explanation I can come up with). I think yesterday's race was Massa's worst performance this year where he was actually lapped by his team-mate in an identical car.

Massa has always seemed to have a degree of mental weakness about him. Even when he was being quick, he mostly achieved his wins from the front after a strong qualifying. When situations were against him he seemed to simply accept it and not even try to fight his way back through the field.

 

[sunama]

Your example of Turkey is incorrect, although Brundle did say several times Lewis should just stay out and leap frog Webber, Ted K came on and said the data showed peoples outlaps on new tyres was much quicker then expected, so that wasn't an option, and the other 2 second stuck wheel nut issue is not something you can legislate for.

Lets assume that the pitstop time of Webber and Hamilton was identical.

Scenario1: (this is what actually happened): Hamilton is behind Webber on the track, but is obviously faster and racier. If he comes in to the pits on the same lap as Webber, he will also leave the pits behind Webber, unless Webber has a problem (which cannot be calculated or predicted). The most likely result of this strategy was that Hamilton comes out behind Webber and then has to overtake Webber on the track itself (almost impossible).

Scenario2: (this is what I propose): Hamilton is scheduled to pit. Webber/RedBull anticipate Hamilton's pitstop and decide to come in the same lap. They did this because they realised Hamilton was very racy. Hamilton/McLaren realise that Webber is coming in on the same lap. At the last moment, Hamilton/McLaren decide stay out for another lap. Hamilton will be asked to absolutely hammer that lap (which if anybody is capable of doing, its Hamilton...fastest driver in F1 and all that). Webber is now behind on track, but 1 pit stop ahead. Hamilton pits on the very next lap. His pitstop time is identical to Webber's and he WILL DEFINITELY come out of the pits ahead of Webber (assuming that Hamilton didnt have any problems/incidents). The problem for Hamilton is to stay ahead of Webber, as his tyres reach their correct temperature. There is every chance he can do this.

You will notice that in Scenario2, Hamilton at least has a chance of staying ahead of Webber. In Scenerio1 (which actually happened), he has little chance of ever going ahead of Webber.

There is no doubt in my mind that Senna would've stayed out for an extra lap and attempted to overtake Webber during the pitstop (as opposed to doing it on track, which was near impossible). Senna was legendary when it came to strategic decisions.

 

[sunama]

Massa has always seemed to have a degree of mental weakness about him.

I disagree with this, but this is merely opinion...not fact.

With regards to facts: when was the last time Massa was lapped by his team-mate?

 

[Mr Jack]

I disagree with this, but this is merely opinion...not fact.

So you think he's let himself be mentally beaten by his teammate, but is not mentally weak?

 

[mmj_uk]

Maybe Massa's head injury affected his driving ability?

I watched the documentary with Stirling Moss and he claimed that prior to his accident his driving was purely instinctive but was never the same afterwards, or maybe he's just lost some of his bottle.

 

[Alibaba99]

Don't forget that RBR had the best/fastest car in Turkey. They only failed to get the 1-2 due to colliding with eachother.



With regards to McLaren bringing a new upgrade: all the leading teams bring new upgrades to EVERY SINGLE RACE. All this talk of "bringing a new upgrade package" IMO is gamesmanship and nothing else.

Weren't RedBull supposed to have had a HUGE upgrade package 2 races in Turkey (I think it was), yet it was McLaren who didnt bring a big upgrade, who had actually closed down the gap.

McLaren (and the other leading teams), bring new parts to every single race. The same will apply to Silverstone, but I do not believe that the upgrades in Silverstone will be any more significant than the upgrades we have seen in each of the previous races this year.

RedBull shall also bring new parts to Silverstone and I believe will maintain their car advantage.

Whilst it is true that all teams have been bringing upgrades along in most cases they only seem to be maintaining the status quo. Only McLaren have actually appeared to be bridging the gap to RBR with their upgrades making their car faster relative to the others.

Also remember that at Turkey RBR had to remove several illegal suspension parts from their car (from both the front and rear) and this is reckoned to have cost them around .2sec a lap. McLaren have been playing with their front wing and also the diffuser inlet which isn't readily visible. They may finally be getting enough air to satisfy the huge outlet when the car is running at slower speeds.

As for Ferrari their car lacks downforce, Montreal doesn't require huge downforce so they may have been less disadvantaged than other teams hence Alonso moving up the rankings.

 

[sunama]

So you think he's let himself be mentally beaten by his teammate, but is not mentally weak?

When you are going up directly against the likes of Hamilton or Alonso and regularly getting beaten when it counts. Or even worse, getting lapped by your team-mate, I don't care who you are...you will be susceptible to being mentally broken down.

You're thinking to yourself that no matter what you do, even when you copy your team-mate's setup identically, you are still getting beaten. Regular beatings are going to wear most people down and this doesnt necessarily mean that you are mentally weak.

Admittedly there are some drivers who are mentally tough...Button is one of them. It would've been easy for him to get himself down when he sees Hamilton consistently going faster than him, but he isn't getting himself down. Instead, he is hanging on in there, hoping that Hamilton will eventually have a few weak races, at which point he will capitalise. Massa on other hand hasnt been able to do this and seems to have just given up. Being lapped in yesterday's race must've sapped his confidence further and I'm finding it difficult to understand why Ferrari re-signed him.

I just don't understand hhow he fallen down so quickly (bearing in mind that he was right up there with Alonso in the opening GP of 2010).

 

[Demon]

Lets assume that the pitstop time of Webber and Hamilton was identical.

Scenario1: (this is what actually happened): Hamilton is behind Webber on the track, but is obviously faster and racier. If he comes in to the pits on the same lap as Webber, he will also leave the pits behind Webber, unless Webber has a problem (which cannot be calculated or predicted). The most likely result of this strategy was that Hamilton comes out behind Webber and then has to overtake Webber on the track itself (almost impossible).

Scenario2: (this is what I propose): Hamilton is scheduled to pit. Webber/RedBull anticipate Hamilton's pitstop and decide to come in the same lap. They did this because they realised Hamilton was very racy. Hamilton/McLaren realise that Webber is coming in on the same lap. At the last moment, Hamilton/McLaren decide stay out for another lap. Hamilton will be asked to absolutely hammer that lap (which if anybody is capable of doing, its Hamilton...fastest driver in F1 and all that). Webber is now behind on track, but 1 pit stop ahead. Hamilton pits on the very next lap. His pitstop time is identical to Webber's and he WILL DEFINITELY come out of the pits ahead of Webber (assuming that Hamilton didnt have any problems/incidents). The problem for Hamilton is to stay ahead of Webber, as his tyres reach their correct temperature. There is every chance he can do this.

You will notice that in Scenario2, Hamilton at least has a chance of staying ahead of Webber. In Scenerio1 (which actually happened), he has little chance of ever going ahead of Webber.

There is no doubt in my mind that Senna would've stayed out for an extra lap and attempted to overtake Webber during the pitstop (as opposed to doing it on track, which was near impossible). Senna was legendary when it came to strategic decisions.

Not being funny, but you totally missed the point that the out-laps on new tyres was much quicker then the in-laps on old tyres.. Ted K said this live, and the F1 Fanatic Laptime data backs it up, the teams reacted to this, and all pitted immediately, staying out on old tyres would 100% not work...

So you have to be careful about hypothesising, especially when we have a lot of 'data' to test any scenario's..

I'm sure there are other situations that may be more valid, but this one isn't..

 

[sunama]

Not being funny, but you totally missed the point that the out-laps on new tyres was much quicker then the in-laps on old tyres.. Ted K said this live, and the F1 Fanatic Laptime data backs it up, the teams reacted to this, and all pitted immediately, staying out on old tyres would 100% not work...

Do you have any links to the data on the in and out lap times for that race?

Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out laps simply because the tyres are much warmer and the driver (on the in lap) already has a good idea of where the limits of the tyres are. On the out lap, the driver is not only warming up his tyres but also finding the limits of the tyres. Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out lap, unless of course the driver, during the in lap, had "issues".

A link to the in/out lap times would be gratefully appreciated.

 

[Alibaba99]

Do you have any links to the data on the in and out lap times for that race?

Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out laps simply because the tyres are much warmer and the driver (on the in lap) already has a good idea of where the limits of the tyres are. On the out lap, the driver is not only warming up his tyres but also finding the limits of the tyres. Conventional thinking states that the in lap will be much faster than the out lap, unless of course the driver, during the in lap, had "issues".

A link to the in/out lap times would be gratefully appreciated.

The tyre is already pretty much up to temperature when it comes out of the blankets. It only takes a couple of corners for them to be fully up to racing temp.

You only have to look at Button in Turkey. He stayed out on the soft tyres for another 4(?) laps before pitting. Despite clear air from Vettel already having stopped, his team mate having problems with wheel nuts and then Webber by the time he left the pits he was even further behind Hamilton than when he came in.