Canadian Grand Prix 2013, Montréal - Race 7/19

Skeeter said:
Theres a drinking game in there.

Whenever Button says 'balance'
Whenever anyone says 'for sure'
Whenever MB says 'in my day'
Whenever Hamilton looks misserable
Whenever Vettel puts up the finger
Whenever Fat John crashes

You'd be hammered before the race even started!
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Whenever johnny herbert says "utilise"
 
drunkenmaster said:
It's funny, when Button has a bad race, strategy is ENTIRELY down to the team and not Button, when Button gets a "perfect" call on when to pit, what tyre to be on, its always always entirely Button's tyre management that is better and his brilliant tactical decisions he makes himself that do it.

AS for being at the back of the queue in Q2, are people forgetting because its convenient to make Button look better, that almost no one went faster in the last run, and Button went out because he was unable to put in a good time before the red flag like everyone else? He went out of Q2, because he was slow in Q2, nothing more or less, likewise it seemed he had time to get around and simply backed off the car infront too much to get across the line in time.

Di Resta was screwed because the team tried to fix a minor problem at the wrong time while the track was the fastest, he had no chance, Button was ON THE TRACK when the track was the fastest and simply wasn't slow enough, no comparison.

Back to strategy and how long he was on the tyres, that is ALSO HIS DECISION. As for what Force India did being suggestive of what Mclaren can do, rubbish, for the previous two seasons the Force India has had better tyre wear than the Mclaren as well as others, so absolutely no reason to believe the Mclaren could come close on tyre wear.

Merc and Mclaren are making similar tactical errors, they are cars that don't fit the "perfect" strategy for whatever reason, and currently try and force the optimum strategy while falling back to the one the car can actually handle, and losing time being on the wrong strategy pace till they change. When there is a choice in a race between 2/3 stop, a Ferrari/Lotus has that choice, the Mclaren is borderline(this year harder to see if tyre wear has gone backwards from last year due to pace of car), Merc absolutely can't, but when you pee around on 2 stop pace, then switch to a three stop, you automatically lose 20-25seconds for the extra pitstop that you then can't make back.


Points have NOTHING to do with driver quality, neither do titles, all you can gleam from titles is a driver was very likely in the best car that year, or a car so close to the best as to make them competitive, and sometimes you can determine who the better driver in a team is, depends on the status in the team though to a degree.

Hamilton outdrove Button for the massive majority of 3 years, full stop, points don't tell a story, Hamilton EASILY outdrove Button on the track through the yeah he "lost" on points, just the races he was taken out by Massa/Maldo/Webber would have put him ahead of Button(oh, and the race Button took him out), let alone the fact that Hamilton was hurt by actually fighting the cars infront, when Button frequently wasn't, its the downside of racing, punish drivers fast enough to fight with the car infront.....
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Just reading that you think button was at fault (driving on the racing line) with lewis having an epic brain fart and thinking his car could somehow breathe in mr gadget style shows how blinkered you are. And to say that Hamilton wasnt at fault for any of the crashes with massa and maldo etc. Laughable... you're saying lewis t boning maldo at t1 monaco was maldonados fault?

Even calamity hamilty had to try and blame his rookie driving style on his wing mirrors. The other drivers had no such modifications on their car. ROFL.
 
Hamilton made some screw ups, but looking specifically at the Monaco T1 crash, the pass he made on Schumacher previous showed how that one was down to Maldonado. Hamilton made the exact same move on 2 different drivers. One didn't hit him, and it was labelled a great overtake, the other did hit him and it was labelled a stupid move.
 
Irish_Tom said:
RE: Hamilton vs. Button
The one thing that article doesn't reflect is the position each driver was in when they retired in the 13 / 8 races that they failed to finish.

I can't easily find these statistics and don't have time to work it out but it would be interesting to see how many points each driver actually dropped due to their DNFs (for whatever reason, mechanical or driver error).
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Right, I tried to find the answer to this on my lunch break…

From what I can tell (using F1fanatic and Wiki) over the three seasons LH lost 153 points from his retirements while JB lost 59.

Now, regardless of whether it was the driver's fault, another car on track or down to mechanical failure, those points would have made a huge difference.

However, in 2011 (when JB outscored LH) the difference in points lost was only two in Hamilton's favour, so there was still a 41 point deficit on JB's total.

LH lost 93 of those points in 2012, which just goes to show how close he could have been to Vettel and Alonso (even if you take into account their retirements and the points they would have got from them).
 
Irish_Tom said:
Right, I tried to find the answer to this on my lunch break…

From what I can tell (using F1fanatic and Wiki) over the three seasons LH lost 153 points from his retirements while JB lost 59.

Now, regardless of whether it was the driver's fault, another car on track or down to mechanical failure, those points would have made a huge difference.

However, in 2011 (when JB outscored LH) the difference in points lost was only two in Hamilton's favour, so there was still a 41 point deficit on JB's total.

LH lost 93 of those points in 2012, which just goes to show how close he could have been to Vettel and Alonso (even if you take into account their retirements and the points they would have got from them).
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2012 was a serious shame for Lewis. He was a title contender but just had the worst luck :(
 
Skeeter said:
Theres a drinking game in there.

Whenever Button says 'balance'
Whenever anyone says 'for sure'
Whenever MB says 'in my day'
Whenever Hamilton looks misserable
Whenever Vettel puts up the finger
Whenever Fat John crashes

You'd be hammered before the race even started!
Click to expand...

Whenever Martin Whitmarsh replies "yes, no" before giving an answer to a question.

Andi.
 
MooMoo444 said:
Losing 93 points in one season to failures is pretty harsh. What was it, three potential 1sts and one 2nd?
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I've got it down as three 1sts (Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Brazil), one 4th (Valencia), one 7th (Belgium) and one 16th (Germany).

Someone will come along and challenge that now but it all came from F1fanatics lap-charts.
 
If you factor in the lesser points positions received by Vettel/Alonso etc due to Hamilton knocking them all down a slot, wonder how it would have looked, obviously taking their own DNF's into account too.
 
MooMoo444 said:
If you factor in the lesser points positions received by Vettel/Alonso etc due to Hamilton knocking them all down a slot, wonder how it would have looked, obviously taking their own DNF's into account too.
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Yeah I did consider trying to factor that in but it was going to take too long and I had to get back to work.

Also, how far do you go? You end up making so many assumptions that you effectively create an alternate reality.

I'm sure it would also be very hard to avoid bias.

In fact, didn't a Hamilton fan on one of the main F1 sites do something similar and got completely slated for it?
 
There were quite a few calculations done on Hamiltons points. All of them came to the conclusion that without the mechanical failures he would have been in the title fight to the end. None of them claimed he would have won, however, and I think that's fair.

The McLaren car didn't loose him a title, it lost him a chance at a title. Its a shame, a 3 way fight would have been brilliant.
 
Irish_Tom said:
I've got it down as three 1sts (Singapore, Abu Dhabi and Brazil), one 4th (Valencia), one 7th (Belgium) and one 16th (Germany).

Someone will come along and challenge that now but it all came from F1fanatics lap-charts.
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Just to add at Valencia mclearn done a crap pit stop that let Alonso in front who went on to win.

So if McLaren did not make a(I think it was) 30 sec pit stop Lewis would have been were Alonso was and won or maybe second.

If McLaren never made so many stupid mistakes Lewis would have been WDC 2012. Glad he left.
 
Skeeter said:
The McLaren car didn't loose him a title, it lost him a chance at a title. Its a shame, a 3 way fight would have been brilliant.
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Oh definitely, I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

Not taking into account the pitstop deuse mentions or other similar faults (for any driver), purely on the points they lost from DNF positions it would have finished:

Vettel: 306
Alonso: 296
Hamilton: 283

Although that obviously doesn't take into consideration the fact that if Hamilton won in Singapore, Vettel wouldn't have got 25 points etc. What we can be sure of is that it would have been damn close.
 
Irish_Tom said:
Oh definitely, I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

Not taking into account the pitstop deuse mentions or other similar faults (for any driver), purely on the points they lost from DNF positions it would have finished:

Vettel: 306
Alonso: 296
Hamilton: 283

Although that obviously doesn't take into consideration the fact that if Hamilton won in Singapore, Vettel wouldn't have got 25 points etc. What we can be sure of is that it would have been damn close.
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Lewis would have won the WDC in 2012 easy if it wasn't for silly stupid mistakes.

China – Qualifies second but started seventh due to gearbox change penalty. Finishes third. Estimated points loss: three

Bahrain – Running third but following two slow pit stops ends up eighth. Estimated points loss: Eight to ten

Spain – Qualifies on pole but demoted to back of the grid for McLaren fuel infringement. Finishes eighth. Estimated points loss: 21

Monaco – Running third but suffers slow pit stop and loses positions to first Alonso, who stops a lap later, and the even later-stopping Vettel. Finishes fifth. Estimated points loss: Two to five

Europe – Slow pit stop when running third drops him to sixth and behind ultimate race winner Alonso. Spun out on final lap from third after collision with Pastor Maldonado while struggling with tyre wear. Estimated points loss: 15 (based on likely position ahead of Maldonado in closing stages without pit-stop delay)

Singapore – Running first when gearbox fails. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Korea – Rear anti-roll bar failure early in race plays havoc with tyre wear. Drops down order from fourth. Result: 10th. Estimated points loss: 11

Abu Dhabi – Leading the race by three seconds when fuel pressure problem grounds car to a halt. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Estimated total of lost points: 110 points.

And don't forget you have to takeaway points from vimto that Lewis would have gained.

Anyway all in the past now. McLaren are 100% on their way down to mid\low field till at least they get a num 1 driver or 2018
 
Sad news about the marshall :(

Enjoyed the racing this weekend. Massa gave us some entertainment. Hats of to PDR doing 56 laps on one set of tyres. Kimi equaling Schumacher's record of 24 consecutive points finishes is great. A great result and drive from Alonso for second, well done to Vettel he had a good drive (just wish he had hit that wall a little harder :p) and very disappointed to see McLaren where they are right now.
 
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