Canon EOS 7d Body - New - £699

I'd probably buy that Lara Jade vs Joey L video, but not for $199. I can't imagine they must be selling too many copies for that kind of money.

I did buy her book though, but still haven't got around to reading it yet.

I myself developed a twang when I lived out in Canada for a couple of years. After a while you find yourself naturally adapting your accent because it makes it easier for natives to understand you. The trouble is you don't really notice it happening until somebody British you know asks what the hell is wrong with your accent! It went back to normal pretty quickly once I got home though.
 
I picked up a Manchester Twang after sharing a house with a friend from Manchester for 2 years.

I notice I say the odd word with a brummie accent now, like raise tone on the last word in a sentence just because of the people I work with.

It is all subconscious and natural.
 
Nexus said:
I'd probably buy that Lara Jade vs Joey L video, but not for $199. I can't imagine they must be selling too many copies for that kind of money.

I did buy her book though, but still haven't got around to reading it yet.

I myself developed a twang when I lived out in Canada for a couple of years. After a while you find yourself naturally adapting your accent because it makes it easier for natives to understand you. The trouble is you don't really notice it happening until somebody British you know asks what the hell is wrong with your accent! It went back to normal pretty quickly once I got home though.
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Yeah I wouldn't bother with the video, it basically amounts to vlogs from a couple of different shoots. They're shoots from /very/ good photographers and seeing how they both work, particularly in post (I'm pretty much emulating a hybrid of Joey's and Lara's workflows albeit with more work in Lightroom at the moment), but ultimately the dvd itself isn't particularly isn't particularly well produced and the "face off" aspect of it never fleshes out -it's just two people doing shoots that are vaguely related to each other (not that you'd guess it looking at the images). They basically cop out and say that you can't have a photography challenge and that competitions are bogus because everyone has their own vision and drive, which is fine, except I imagine some people who've paid $200 might feel a bit peeved off when what they've bought amounts basically to just some vlogs with them talking to each other at the very start and the very end.
 
I got both the LJ v JL and the Creative Live video but yet to watched them start to end yet, only bits.

I think the Sue Bryce videos are worth watching over LJ for portraits shoots, even though one is fashion, one is glamour. Sue Bryce teaches you more on posing, especially with women in a larger size.

Watch Lindsay Adler if you want to learn about Photoshop.

Robert Valenzuela is really good at making use of your environment, especially composition.
 
Psssh, shooting women of a larger size, what do you take me for? Not a misogynist? :P

I'll take a quick look at them, at some point - I was watching the Lara Jade more because I'm a fan of her work (and have a not so quiet crush on her :P ) than because I felt I needed tips. Just interesting to watch. Being thoroughly immersed in shooting for the last week convinced me I needed a graphics tablet and I've picked up a Bamboo pen and touch to that end, I really like it so far and while I don't have a hell of a lot of retouching in my workload, I like what I'm putting out with it so far :)
 
Watch this and you'll see what I mean about Sue Bryce.

She makes normal women look like models and/or movie stars. As good as LJ is and I do love her :p, this is not the sort of things LJ does and our clients comes in all shapes and sizes unless you can actually pick them from a modelling agency. I will watch them all but i think on a broader brush approach, one would learn more from Sue than Lara.

 
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Guy I follow on 500px uses a 7D and this guys shots are incredible, for me I can only wish I had this guys talent. It might be aging a bit but it's more than capable of world class photos.
 
Tachyon said:
Guy I follow on 500px uses a 7D and this guys shots are incredible, for me I can only wish I had this guys talent. It might be aging a bit but it's more than capable of world class photos.
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There is the nub of the issue a 7D in the right hands will take amazing pictures a D800e in my hands will take average ones! (as my 5dmkii currently does http://www.flickr.com/photos/29781511@N05/).

The internet in general and this forum in particular has a gear obsession and I think we are all guilty of it, I know I am. I guess it's becuase it's easier to discuss gear as it can be analysed and measured which appeals where as talent and creativity are subjective. It also doesn't help that a decent photographer is likely to have good kit so people get the impresssion that top of the line kit is essential.

I remember a few years back when Messiah Khan used to post regularly and some of the macro work he produced with a d40x and a Sigma 105mm f2.8 Macro was outstanding and still some of the best macro work I've seen. We would all do well to remember that the good photographers on here would still be getting good results regardless of the kit.
 
Rojin said:
If you don't need the AF, build, handling etc. then you wouldn't be looking at a 7D... The same sensor is also in the cheaper models in the range. It's not the best crop sensor, but it's not incapable of taking pictures either.

I nearly picked up a D800 and Sigma 35, but missed out by £75... I keep getting itchy feet at the moment, I don't know why?! I'm not looking to do anymore weddings, so thinking of going back to a single body...
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Off topic alert! (spoiler'd it so people dont need to read if they dont want to!)

Surprised you are considering going to a D800 from a 1D as the size difference is really hard to adjust to. When I was selling my photography gear off one of the buyers came with his D800 and no offence to owners of it, but it feels like a toy in comparison to a D3. I was impressed with the performance of it and the file clarity, but the body has a lot to be desired when you are use to a larger body. Body aside, the biggest and worst change for me if I had to get a D800 from owning a D3 is the view finder. The LCD lights on the D800 aren't great (in comparison to the D3s) but I could happily live with that, but the viewfinder is just a step back.

As for the 7D, the recent firmware update turns it into a rather nice crop camera for wildlife, especially on a budget. Decent AF system and burst and the ability to crop due to the file sizes are all plus points for wildlife. At £700, its a bargain!
 
James J said:
Surprised you are considering going to a D800 from a 1D as the size difference is really hard to adjust to. When I was selling my photography gear off one of the buyers came with his D800 and no offence to owners of it, but it feels like a toy in comparison to a D3.
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For about 10 minutes. Tbh most people prefer a lighter body for obvious reasons.
I'v considered getting my E's some grips, I like the extra stability that the size brings, but the weight (especially when you have 2) wouldn't be welcome in the slightest. Switching from 2 gripped D700's to 2 non-gripped E's, the difference in weight felt significant.

Edit:

I asked this guy to make one for a D800, but apparently there is an issue with the batter door.
 
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James J said:
Off topic alert! (spoiler'd it so people dont need to read if they dont want to!)

Surprised you are considering going to a D800 from a 1D as the size difference is really hard to adjust to. When I was selling my photography gear off one of the buyers came with his D800 and no offence to owners of it, but it feels like a toy in comparison to a D3. I was impressed with the performance of it and the file clarity, but the body has a lot to be desired when you are use to a larger body. Body aside, the biggest and worst change for me if I had to get a D800 from owning a D3 is the view finder. The LCD lights on the D800 aren't great (in comparison to the D3s) but I could happily live with that, but the viewfinder is just a step back.

As for the 7D, the recent firmware update turns it into a rather nice crop camera for wildlife, especially on a budget. Decent AF system and burst and the ability to crop due to the file sizes are all plus points for wildlife. At £700, its a bargain!
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I'm not a fan of the smaller sized bodies such as the D7000, but I use a 7D alongside a 1D so I don't think it would be an issue. I do have a grip for the 7D which I sometimes use purely from a power point of view, but I don't like the chunky grip in comparison to the 1D body. I think the D800 grip is better in this respect, as is the new grip for the 5D3. I seriously doubt I'll change (unless a good deal crops up!, the D800 and Sigma were only months old and going for £2075 I think it was...), the 5D3 looks spot on for much of what I shoot. Although if the 7D2 surprises everyone and delivers a lot of what the rumours suggest, then I might actually pick up one of those first for using alongside the 1Ds2. The 5D3 could wait longer :)
 
On the right hands argument, no. Not really true at all. The point is that a good photographer also recognises the limits of his gear and will simply not attempt to get photos that the camera isn't capable of. Yes the 7D can take some great photos, but there are also loads of situations where the sensor will ruin the photos - there's no amount of skill that can counteract noise beyond a certain level, and matters like that are what limit the 7D.
 
Ksanti said:
On the right hands argument, no. Not really true at all. The point is that a good photographer also recognises the limits of his gear and will simply not attempt to get photos that the camera isn't capable of. Yes the 7D can take some great photos, but there are also loads of situations where the sensor will ruin the photos - there's no amount of skill that can counteract noise beyond a certain level, and matters like that are what limit the 7D.
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"Ruin" - I like to see examples of this and what do you mean by ruined.

Does the photo comes out like it has been smeared by vaseline or it is just mildly grainy, lesser degree than some people's added grain to their work.

Does the photo get ruined so much that it is 5 stop over exposed or 3 stop under exposed.

Or is it ruined by stranged tilt your composition to the sky above or the ground on your feet.

Or is it ruined by total out of focus.

Or do you just mean the photo is simply not as clean as the competition? But if shown online, blog or even in print, you won't even notice.

Unless you are pixel peeping.

How ruined are we talking about?

[I totally understand this "limitation" by the way...been meaning to write a topic on this and half written it.]
 
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An Exception said:
For about 10 minutes. Tbh most people prefer a lighter body for obvious reasons.
I'v considered getting my E's some grips, I like the extra stability that the size brings, but the weight (especially when you have 2) wouldn't be welcome in the slightest. Switching from 2 gripped D700's to 2 non-gripped E's, the difference in weight felt significant.

Edit:

I asked this guy to make one for a D800, but apparently there is an issue with the batter door.
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Depends how big your hands are though mate. I'd NEED a grip on a D800 to use one as my little finger on my right hand takes all of the weight of the camera otherwise as it doesn't physically fit on the body, just under it :( I'd probably be able to adapt to it, but my first impression after using my D3 for some time was that it was going backwards, not forwards, in terms of ergonomics and handling.

Rojin said:
I'm not a fan of the smaller sized bodies such as the D7000, but I use a 7D alongside a 1D so I don't think it would be an issue. I do have a grip for the 7D which I sometimes use purely from a power point of view, but I don't like the chunky grip in comparison to the 1D body. I think the D800 grip is better in this respect, as is the new grip for the 5D3. I seriously doubt I'll change (unless a good deal crops up!, the D800 and Sigma were only months old and going for £2075 I think it was...), the 5D3 looks spot on for much of what I shoot. Although if the 7D2 surprises everyone and delivers a lot of what the rumours suggest, then I might actually pick up one of those first for using alongside the 1Ds2. The 5D3 could wait longer :)
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Yeah the refresh will be an interesting camera, especially if it remains at the same size and has better weather sealing than the 7D does. Infact, if nikon don't release a D300s replacement by the time that comes out, canon will gain a whole new customer base.
 
@raymond I'm talking about specific circumstances, in which the amount of noise could very well ruin the shot. Given its primary role is in sports and wildlife, the issues of noise are a huge implication for the value of the camera, particularly for wildlife where detail is the name of the game. If you lose detail to noise as you very much do from around 1600 upwards then you start to limit yourself a lot, and you have such a small amount of dynamic range to play with that you can't just accept a hit on dynamic range and underexpose, knowing you'll bring it back in post later.

In the same way, on the 5D and 5D2, you can create stunning portrait images, but using it in dark nightclubs or for sports work and your odds of getting anything usable are massively cut down.

Every camera that isn't absolute top of the line has something held by the manufacturers, the only exceptions I can think of being the latest full frame mid-size Canikon bodies, as well as the D700. It's just the nature of the beast, but that doesn't mean that the 7D's sensor isn't a massive limitation in terms of what images you can create.

It's like I always say when old school, manual focus film comes up - Digital doesn't make these things easier, it's just allowed us to create images in worse light, with trickier subjects (sports) etc. in a way that we couldn't when everything was manual. You could create stunning landscapes and portraits with 70's film cameras, but good luck doing the same with sports images. In the same way, the 7D can create some stunning images from sports and wildlife in good light due to its very strong AF and its build and pixel density, but it's not going to fair well compared to any other body made in the last 4 years or even further back if you start being picky, when it comes to any situations which place high demands on the sensor in terms of dynamic range, detail or noise performance.
 
londonbairn said:
The 7D grip is not as good compared to the 5dmkiii and 1d grips. It is not ergonomic at all.
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That's an understatement, it's like have a brick taped to the bottom of the camera! :D

Ksanti said:
@Raymond I'm talking about specific circumstances, in which the amount of noise could very well ruin the shot. Given its primary role is in sports and wildlife, the issues of noise are a huge implication for the value of the camera, particularly for wildlife where detail is the name of the game. If you lose detail to noise as you very much do from around 1600 upwards then you start to limit yourself a lot, and you have such a small amount of dynamic range to play with that you can't just accept a hit on dynamic range and underexpose, knowing you'll bring it back in post later.

In the same way, on the 5D and 5D2, you can create stunning portrait images, but using it in dark nightclubs or for sports work and your odds of getting anything usable are massively cut down.

Every camera that isn't absolute top of the line has something held by the manufacturers, the only exceptions I can think of being the latest full frame mid-size Canikon bodies, as well as the D700. It's just the nature of the beast, but that doesn't mean that the 7D's sensor isn't a massive limitation in terms of what images you can create.

It's like I always say when old school, manual focus film comes up - Digital doesn't make these things easier, it's just allowed us to create images in worse light, with trickier subjects (sports) etc. in a way that we couldn't when everything was manual. You could create stunning landscapes and portraits with 70's film cameras, but good luck doing the same with sports images. In the same way, the 7D can create some stunning images from sports and wildlife in good light due to its very strong AF and its build and pixel density, but it's not going to fair well compared to any other body made in the last 4 years or even further back if you start being picky, when it comes to any situations which place high demands on the sensor in terms of dynamic range, detail or noise performance.
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I see you've uprated your original ISO 800 limit, but it's still not based on work people are producing :D There's plenty of ISO 3200 stuff out there that is very nice. I've used it at that for sports without issue. There's plenty of indoor stuff out there at higher ISO as well (MMA, Basketball, Volleyball etc.). You're going to get better results from a 1DIV (the 1D3 is pretty much of a muchness at ISO 3200, I never used mine at H), but it's a much more expensive body. It's going to be better again on a D3s, but they seem to be going back up in price! :D

It's not the cleanest sensor, I've never said that, but it's certainly not an ISO 800 and lower camera either. For my personal use there isn't another crop camera out there that gives me what the 7D does. The D7000 for example has the better sensor, but falls behind in everything else. The A77 gets closer in handling, but again has a noisy sensor and the AF isn't up to scratch.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the D300s and 7D replacements offer, it should be very interesting...

Ultimately (i.e. over the next 5-6 years) I'm aiming for a camera bag with the following lenses in it:

35L
50L
85L
100L IS Macro
135L
24-70L II
70-200L IS II
100-400L (hopefully a new version might be out in the next couple of years) or a 400L f5.6

After that (or possibly before as my requirements are bound to change in that time period), I'd be looking at the Canon TS-E lenses. That's purely on the expectation that as I get older I might get more into landscape stuff...
 
Then all we are talking about here is noise performance. Each generation is better than the last, no real surprise there. The 1D4 was the last of the cropped pro and top end one, not the 7D, so in that respect if you want something better than the 7D, there was always the 1D4.

Wild life in yesteryear with film can do it with grainy 3200 ISO. I really don't see why a 3200 ISO modern camera will ruin any photograph. The only difference here is that people's perception have changed and their standard have moved way higher, yet apply today's standard on a camera that is 4 years old just because it hasn't been replaced yet.

By all means point out the shortcomings of a camera, but I don't think it is fair unless a little credit is given for other aspects or taking into accounts the rest of its strengths. It is £700 ! I paid £640 for my 30D.

Does the 7D have the best sensor?

No.

Is the 7D the best cropped camera on sale?

No.

Is it capable?

Certainly.

Should you not buy it because of some limitation that a D3 doesn't have?

That is up to you.

There are shortcomings to the camera, yes, compare to other cameras, it’s the sensor for the 7D. No arguments there, but to put everything on the table, it has lots of other features going for it that other cameras in the same price bracket does not offer so take the package as a whole, see if it suits you. If you find yourself shooting at ISO12800 at 1/200th of a second then obviously you are really serious or it is your source of income then perhaps you ought to think about investing more into the body for a 1Dx with a bigger prime. For its target audience, £699 for a body like this? Good value for money.
 
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