Canon EOS 7d Body - New - £699

Rojin · 2 Mar 2013 at 15:35

An Exception said:
Yes, and i usef to own a 550d, which pretty much the same sensor minus a strong aa filter, and weird 7d specific noise at low iso.

Ah yes, the infamous "my 550D is a 7D just in a smaller body" saga

Using a 550D and 7D couldn't be a more different experience. Sensors are pretty much the same, but the performance and handling is a big step up. I really dislike using my brothers 550D, even though I quite liked my 500D when I had it.

Ksanti · 2 Mar 2013 at 16:08

I'm enjoying this whole witch hunt.

I'm saying, and listen carefully here, that in the context of a top of the line crop body, the 7D doesn't fit the bill as well as it should, now less than ever. It's a strong camera in the right situations, but it's no better than a 550D in too many situations in terms of raw IQ. When you fall into the sub £800 bracket you're basically looking at enthusiasts and consumers, more consumers, and that's why I've been looking at it from the perspective of people who generally buy brand new cameras in this sort of price bracket.

If you look at it from the perspective of 90% of consumers, the size and weight of the 7D is a downside, the autofocus is largely a non issue and the so-so IQ compared to the other options in the price bracket outweighs the AF tracking for the most part.

If you look at it from the perspective of enthusiasts, then you've got to start comparing it to the old 5D, to options like the 50D or 40D (given the lack of a significant improvement in sensor performance on the 7D, and the sizeable extra money on lenses you'd be able to play with) or even stuff like a 1D2 body or similar. When you start comparing the 7D to those cameras, there's not a whole lot in it unless you must shoot video - but then why wouldn't you drop down to say a 550D, or jump to a 5D2 if you were serious? This is without even considering the other systems - Nikon's crop bodies are almost undeniably superior to the Canon system, though lenses can push either way depending on what you shoot and your own opinions.

Rojin · 2 Mar 2013 at 17:24

The only witch hunt, is yours against a body that you haven't even used based on hyperbole. The 7D is better than the 40D, 50D and 1D2. I know because I've used all of them. The 7D is also better than than the D300s, which is the only other crop body with the comparable handling and AF performance that I'm after. The D7100 potentially has improved AF now, but it's still the smaller form factor. Sure if my only concern was sensor performance I'd have many more options, but as that is the least of my concerns it's a non issue. I don't do wildlife, but I have used the 7D extensively for sports including under floodlights. It held its own against the 1D3 I also used, although the AF is better on the 1D3.

Ksanti · 2 Mar 2013 at 22:06

I've used it a couple of times when on holiday last year as one of the friend's I was with wanted to try my 5D as well. Not extensively, but with that in mind, as well as having used a 5D3 (more or less the same ergonomically) and a 550d (slightly better sensor wise), in addition to having seen raw files from it, I know it's not as good as it should be. The AA filter is noticeably stronger in everything but the smallest web presentation sizes, which is a big issue for my work, if not many others.

I know it's better than the 40D and 50D. I was saying you have to compare it to them and think is it really worth the extra money when dropping down could bump you from a 70-200 f/4L, to a 2.8, or a 2.8 to a 2.8 IS etc. and in that context there's not that much more that it offers.

I'm pretty sure I was defending the 7D compared to the D7000 and D7100 the other day, and I thought I'd made it clear that the 7D is a strong camera - but just because it's down to £700 doesn't mean it suddenly wipes the floor with everything else in the market, it has a few very significant shortcomings that really need to be considered before you jump at it just because it's got a single digit model name.

I do sometimes wonder how much the 7D's sales have benefited simply because it's been called the 7D rather than the 60D... Obviously the actual 60D's lower end status has skewed my opinion of the xxD cameras, but I still reckon being called the 7D has helped it, though obviously so has being out for almost half a decade

James J · 2 Mar 2013 at 23:05

No one said it does wipe the floor with anything else. Its a good price to buy the camera if someone wants a nice quick burst rate camera for wildlife and outdoor sport.

This forum is obsessed with gear and retarded DXO ratings on sensors. There is a lot more to a camera body than just the sensor. You aren't buying one and won't be using it, so why be so openly against it?

An Exception · 2 Mar 2013 at 23:21

James J said:
This forum is obsessed with gear and retarded DXO ratings on sensors. There is a lot more to a camera body than just the sensor. You aren't buying one and won't be using it, so why be so openly against it?

Firstly there is nothing retarded about DXO scores. They are simply measurements. DXO is no more retarded than your shoe size.
Secondly your choice to use the word 'retarded' is pretty crass.
You aren't buying one and won't be using it, so why be so openly defensive of it?

Raymond Lin · 2 Mar 2013 at 23:40

I think before Rhys started talking about them, I have never heard of it, nor AA Filters. Certainly before Rhys join the board, I don't remember there has been so much discussion about them and I've been here since the beginning.

Do you think my photographs have suffered as a result with the lack of attention to these technical details on the camera technical details?

What James is trying to say is of ALL the things we should worry about when taking a photograph.

DXO, AA filter, Dynamic range. Way down the list of things I care about or one should care about, it is below if there is enough battery to last the trip.

But now it is all we talk about.

What we have in this thread are 2 sides.

One side (Nikon users...surprise surprise) dissing a camera (Even thought they admit it is good value for money), saying that it isn't as good as it could have been...I am not sure what you are trying to say. Of course it isn't as good as it should have been, it is as good they want to make it, that is the same for every camera. The D800 isn't as good as it could have been either, it could have every feature the D4 has but it doesn't, because if it does, no one will buy the D800.

On the other side are 7D users already admitting that the sensor is not as good as D800...shock horror as one is a generation newer and more advanced. They are millions of happy 7D users out there, I don't think they will lose any sleep over the fact that the D800 has better DXO score. Do you? You should see a doctor if you do.

We all know Nikon has the upper hand in sensor tech currently, so I don't know why people want to keep bring it up, it is like a ball of crap that they want to keep throwing at people who uses Canon. I know that already...got anything new to say? The previous Nikon sensor sucked, they totally sucked, they can't do ISO 400 without looking like a mess but i don't recall once going on about it or anyone going on about it back then. People judge photos by the photos, not the camera they use and that is the way it should be.

So what is going on here, why are people here so gear obsessed ? Please don't give me that "this is a computer forum" argument, that is crap. This obsession isn't healthy, it is beyond a joke, it is sad and we should care less about these charts, I am proud to say that I have never read one of these, NOT one and don't intend to. They do nothing in improving my photography skills or yours for that matter.

Spent a little less time in reading these charts and spend a little more taking photos. You don't get to become a better photographer by looking at charts.

Ksanti · 2 Mar 2013 at 23:58

Raymond you don't shoot wildlife, where detail is pretty much all the way up there. DXO is a good way of quantifying ISO performance in particular which otherwise tends to just be given as a thereabouts measurement of "usable up to xxx ISO". It just makes it easier to compare them than looking up comparable samples of each one. The strong AA filter on the 7D makes a big impact for wildlife, particularly when you're printing large as most wildlife photographers who make their living off of it do. If you hadn't noticed dynamic range being an issue shooting anything older than the 5D2 I'd be quite surprised as dynamic range has been really quite poor on older cameras - to the point where even under relatively even lighting you couldn't possibly shoot a detailed wedding dress as well as a tuxedo.

An Exception · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:01

Raymond Lin said:
I think before Rhys started talking about them, I have never heard of it, nor AA Filters. Certainly before Rhys join the board, I don't remember there has been so much discussion about them and I've been here since the beginning.

Do you think my photographs have suffered as a result with the lack of attention to these technical details on the camera technical details?

What James is trying to say is of ALL the things we should worry about when taking a photograph.

DXO, AA filter, Dynamic range. Way down the list of things I care about or one should care about, it is below if there is enough battery to last the trip.

But now it is all we talk about.

Raymond, I'm sorry your not as ignorant of camera gear anymore. For someone with little interest in the subject, you do seem to show up in allot of threads.

Raymond Lin · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:02

Ksanti said:
Raymond you don't shoot wildlife, where detail is pretty much all the way up there. DXO is a good way of quantifying ISO performance in particular which otherwise tends to just be given as a thereabouts measurement of "usable up to xxx ISO". It just makes it easier to compare them than looking up comparable samples of each one. The strong AA filter on the 7D makes a big impact for wildlife, particularly when you're printing large as most wildlife photographers who make their living off of it do. If you hadn't noticed dynamic range being an issue shooting anything older than the 5D2 I'd be quite surprised as dynamic range has been really quite poor on older cameras - to the point where even under relatively even lighting you couldn't possibly shoot a detailed wedding dress as well as a tuxedo.

If the 7D is a 100% wild life camera and if you point it at a building, it blows up.

Then I agree.

But it doesn't.

It is a camera, it takes photos.

Shot this on a 30D when I was doing it for free, with a Tamron lens.

Do you honestly look at that and think "geez, if he took that on a D800 it would have been SOOOO much better"

Ksanti · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:08

No but if you READ what i was talking about, it was SPORTS AND WILDLIFE. Sorry for the all caps shouting, but I'd been talking about it as a sports and wildlife camera (its main usage when talking about the enthusiast market) and that's where the AA filter became a real issue. The ISO performance and dynamic range are other issues that I spoke about in other contexts.

You said my comments on the AA filter were unwarranted, I just gave the situation (which is very applicable to the 7D given its feature set) in which the AA filter limited it.

Raymond Lin · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:10

An Exception said:
Raymond, I'm sorry your not as ignorant of camera gear anymore. For someone with little interest in the subject, you do seem to show up in allot of threads.

Your point being?

And on ALL these online courses I have seen, not once have I ever seen a photographer tell another not buy a camera because of DXO scores.

Not once. Ever.

Ksanti · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:13

Raymond Lin said:
Shot this on a 30D when I was doing it for free, with a Tamron lens.

Do you honestly look at that and think "geez, if he took that on a D800 it would have been SOOOO much better"

Print it at 60" by 40" and yes, I do think it would look a lot better from a D800 file. Huge prints are one of the reasons why I went with the D800 over the 30D. Obviously at web sizes the differences aren't as pronounced but then I don't shoot just to post up on forums.

Raymond Lin · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:15

Ksanti said:
No but if you READ what i was talking about, it was SPORTS AND WILDLIFE. Sorry for the all caps shouting, but I'd been talking about it as a sports and wildlife camera (its main usage when talking about the enthusiast market) and that's where the AA filter became a real issue. The ISO performance and dynamic range are other issues that I spoke about in other contexts.

You said my comments on the AA filter were unwarranted, I just gave the situation (which is very applicable to the 7D given its feature set) in which the AA filter limited it.

So are you saying...all these SPORTS and WILDLIFE photos out there all look rubbish?

Or are they all taken with a Nikon and people pretend they took that with a 7D?

Or do you think they actually took it with a 7D and the photos actually look good?

Oh look, 400D

http://500px.com/photo/5737283

Oh look, D200

http://500px.com/photo/5259049

S800

http://500px.com/photo/7190214

7D

http://500px.com/photo/24378659

An Olympus !

http://500px.com/photo/25805707

Seriously, it doesn't matter !

Ksanti · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:16

Raymond Lin said:
Your point being?

And on ALL these online courses I have seen, not once have I ever seen a photographer tell another not buy a camera because of DXO scores.

Not once. Ever.

DXO scores started a couple of years ago. I'm sure you'll have heard photographers talk about MTF charts and the like. And they'll have spoken about ISO performance. They just haven't used DXO as their source because they're not primarily web based photographers or they've been busy shooting rather than hanging out having gear arguments on forums.

Particularly for pros who've been doing it for a while, it's just a matter of buy the current iteration of whatever system you have or move into medium format if you feel like it. Budget isn't so much of an issue when you can just do a couple more online courses to pay for a new body, telling people how to make money from their photography

Raymond Lin · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:17

Ksanti said:
Print it at 60" by 40" and yes, I do think it would look a lot better from a D800 file. Huge prints are one of the reasons why I went with the D800 over the 30D. Obviously at web sizes the differences aren't as pronounced but then I don't shoot just to post up on forums.

I dunno, it looks great printed big. It's in their front room hung up and it looks amazing in person.

Ksanti · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:18

On that last image dump, yeah again. Web sizes. Also weaker AA filters than the 7D on all of those cameras. And almost all of those were taken at very low ISOs.

EDIT: Perhaps it does. I can see a big difference in my D5000 prints to my 5D prints, and in the crops I've seen a noticeable difference in my D800 setup to my 5D. Given I could see differences at 18*12 inch prints from D5000 to 5D, I'll definitely be able to appreciate them in gallery prints.

Raymond Lin · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:20

Pixel peeping is not healthy okay?

Ksanti · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:21

It is when you're selling images to interior design agencies, fashion clients and fine art galleries. Perhaps not so much in wedding photography but then we're not shooting the same stuff. The interior design agencies point is particularly relevant to wildlife photographers if they want to make any sort of liveable income off of their photography, again a point where the 7D's sensor design could present a serious limitation compared to even an old 1D system.

An Exception · 3 Mar 2013 at 00:21

Raymond Lin said:
Your point being?

And on ALL these online courses I have seen, not once have I ever seen a photographer tell another not buy a camera because of DXO scores.

Not once. Ever.

My point being, if your not posting in gear threads to discuss gear, then your simply here to argue for the sake of arguing. Perhaps you can find some of my grammar mistakes to correct again, that must be fun.

This is a forum. People discuss their opinions. Such discussion in an online course would likely be seen as inappropriate and is another tangent.