Carragher DM

Hilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:11

Gilly said:
Sod that. If its 5 across the middle you're after your choices are simple.

Joe Cole

Frank Lampard

Michael Carrick

Steven Gerrard

Aaron Lennon

Lampard and Gerrard do what they do, Cole and Lennon create for them and the guy playing up top and Carrick holds it all together and breaks up the play of the opposition.

If you bring Beckham in you either drop Lennon (makes no sense, whats the point of having Beckham on when all he can do is cross the ball very, very well. We have no target man unless you have Crouch in for Owen). We need someone who frightens the defence with pace. Lennon is that player.

Beckham is the least important regular England midfielder.

Yes but if you play 3 across the middle like you are suggestiong (holding playing behind, attacking playing infront) then you need to spread out the middle a fair bit. With a more compact middle, with the ability to go wide it will work better upon the defensive. Beckham can play in the middle, he does for RM at times, Cole also can. With a target man playing very very high up, you don't need genuine pace from him, the pace comes from the midfield with Gerrard and Cole providing genuine pace. Lennon would be better towards the end of the game, where you can then spread the midfield out and go for the goal, without being worried about being hit on the break

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:12

deSade said:
Now now Gilly - let's not get carried away!

Who would you put him in front of? Gerrard? Certainly not. Lampard? Definitely not. Cole? Maybe, different kind of player, but Cole has made that left spot his own.

England would be seriously rocker by losing any of those 4 players. The least impact would be losing Beckham.

Youstolemyname said:
/Edit and as for Beckham, he will start instead of Lennon but thats life. Im sure there are some behind the scenes meddling from sponsors as there is no WAY on earth he should be captain of England. Terry or Gerrard imho.

Absolutely. There's no way Beckham will be dropped. Its a shame, but as you say thats life.

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:14

hilly said:
Yes but if you play 3 across the middle like you are suggestiong (holding playing behind, attacking playing infront) then you need to spread out the middle a fair bit.

Why?

hilly said:
With a more compact middle, with the ability to go wide it will work better upon the defensive.

What?

hilly said:
.

I'm sorry. I don't know whether I can agree or disagree with you because I don't know what you're on about :/

Burned_Alive · 30 May 2006 at 18:19

Gilly said:
Except having Gerrard and Lampard the wrong way round I'd go with that. Gerrard is a better box-to-box and Lampard is a better attacking midfielder. Gewrrard is a better passer and is good running from deep, Lampard is usually already in the right position.

Both score nice goals from the edge of the box though.

If Lampard was the better attacking midfielder, why is Sven putting Gerrard up front?

ballistic said:
What kind of excuse is that? I rather try he tries it a year before the world cup rather than 10 days

Except we dont have a year do we, we have 10 days.

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:21

Burned_Alive said:
If Lampard was the better attacking midfielder, why is Sven putting Gerrard up front?

Maybe because he thinks Lampard is the better all round midfielder? Maybe because he thinks Gerrard is a better attacker?

No idea. Who can say what Sven thinks. Some of his decisions seem so daft they leave me completely baffled. Seems I'm not alone in thinking this.

quackers · 30 May 2006 at 18:22

when france won in 98, what was their formation? If i remember they one had one striker playing

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:24

IIRC they switched between 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 using Dugarry, Trezeguet and Wiltord?

quackers · 30 May 2006 at 18:26

i dont think trezeguet and Wiltord played too much. I can remember the bloke that played for newcastle, with zidane and dugarry.

Edit: Stephane Guivarc'h, Didier Deschamps and Djorkaeff

Edit part 2: Didnt they play 4-1-2-2-2 ?

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:28

Maybe it was Djorkaeff rather than Trezeguet, I'm pretty sure the other two are right though.

Don't know who you mean used to play for the toon though.

[edit]Deschamps was a midfielder. Don't remember Guivarc'h doing much. He played in the final but was awful.

quackers · 30 May 2006 at 18:29

it was Stephane Guivarc'h, didnt score much for club nor country.

and im sure they played 4-2-2-2

Hilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:30

Gilly said:
Why?

What?

I'm sorry. I don't know whether I can agree or disagree with you because I don't know what you're on about :/

With a midfield of: x x x it will perform a lot worse than:

x x x with the ability for Cole and Beckham to move more outwards and get some chalk on their boots. You have to be compact and study against the good teams, which is why a closer formation will allow you to have men behind the ball, and not be broken down through the middle

Stag · 30 May 2006 at 18:31

quackers said:
it was Stephane Guivarc'h, didnt score much for club nor country.

and im sure they played 4-1-2-2-2

11 outfield players eh? dirty cheating French!

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:32

hilly said:
With a midfield of: x x x it will perform a lot worse than:

x x x with the ability for Cole and Beckham to move more outwards and get some chalk on their boots. You have to be compact and study against the good teams, which is why a closer formation will allow you to have men behind the ball, and not be broken down through the middle

A midfield of XXX will perform worse than a midfield of XXX?

What are you on?

Are you really saying you would hinge England's midfield on a three of Cole, Lampard and Beckham? Where would your tackling come from?

quackers · 30 May 2006 at 18:32

oops, i knew id do that.. doh!

quackers · 30 May 2006 at 18:33

agree with gilly, thats a power puff midfield. Id play carrick with gerrard and lampard, beckham and cole

Stag · 30 May 2006 at 18:39

With a midfield of:

-----------Lampard-------------

Cole--Carrick--Gerrard--Beckham

With Beckham lacking pace down the right hand side, I'd have Gerrard making the runs down that side with Beckham drifting into the centre. Arguably you could just swap the two to start with, but Gerrard has a lot more influence in the centre.

Gilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:49

That sounds pretty good Stag

Hilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:49

Gilly said:
A midfield of XXX will perform worse than a midfield of XXX?

What are you on?

Are you really saying you would hinge England's midfield on a three of Cole, Lampard and Beckham? Where would your tackling come from?

Gah it edited out my nicely placed spaces

I'm saying a more compact tighter midfield, with Cole and Beckham able to move outside, will perform better with them already on the wing, with only one (Lampard) in the center.

A more compact midfield is better defensively, but can spring quickly for am ore counter attacking side. Although defensive minded won't win you games, it won't lose you games either.

Weebull · 30 May 2006 at 18:50

Everything Gilly has said so far is right.

The trouble with Beckham is that Sven dare not drop him because he's captain and media darling, but he can't take the captaincy off of him because he's the media darling and err, plays every game. Terry would be my choice for cptain these days. He's currently the best English defender there is, and thus will be in the team on form, not name basis. If Beckham was droppable, I'd actually prefer to have seen Gerrard given a try on the right of a 4-4-2, thus giving us a holding midfielder AND two strikers. Otherwise though, that 4-5-1 works perfectly too, and with Lampard pushing forward I don't think we'd neccesarily have to drop Owen for Crouch. Pool need a Crouch in that formation because they don't really have an attacking mid in the same manner as Fat Frank. Gerrard still stays back too much and waits for pot shots outside the area, which means a big man has to hold the ball up for him to get there. Lampard would be moving up and providing support for Owen, not a million miles off of what Rooney does, so it wouldn't actually change all that much.

EDIT: Good suggestions by Stag, whatever next.

Hilly · 30 May 2006 at 18:50

Stag said:
With a midfield of:

-----------Lampard-------------

Cole--Carrick--Gerrard--Beckham

With Beckham lacking pace down the right hand side, I'd have Gerrard making the runs down that side with Beckham drifting into the centre. Arguably you could just swap the two to start with, but Gerrard has a lot more influence in the centre.

I'd swap Gerrard and Lampard over, Gerrard would link better with the front man, than Lampard would. He has more pace than Fat Frank, so can make more runs inbehind too.