Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

dowie · 4 Jul 2017 at 09:59

re: the IAAF vs the court for arbitration in sport. It looks like there is a now a new study to show what we basically already knew - that testosterone has a significant impact on performance:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...undertake-hormone-therapy-for-future-olympics

Caster Semenya, the Olympic 800m champion, may be banned from competing at future Games unless she undergoes hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or even surgery in the wake of a landmark study into athletes with raised testosterone levels which has just been published.

The International Association of Athletics Federations, the world governing body, commissioned research which has produced the most conclusive evidence yet that female athletes with very high levels of naturally occurring testosterone receive significant performance-enhancing benefits in competition.

[...]

Researchers measured blood testosterone levels in 1,332 female athletes competing across 21 track and field disciplines at the 2011 and 2013 world championships. Those with the highest levels of testosterone demonstrated significant advantages over those with the lowest levels – notably in the 400m (2.7% faster), the 400m hurdles (2.8% faster), the 800m (1.8% faster), the hammer throw (4.5% longer) and in the pole vault (2.9% higher).

Although these margins appear small, at the highest level a performance boost of a few percentage points might mean the difference between winning gold and missing out on a medal.

Bit unfortunate that the CAS made such a stupid ruling in the first place leading to the utter farce that was the 800m final in Rio... there were rather obvious questions raised about all three medalists in that event and unsurprisingly the women placed 4th-6th were rather gutted, GB athlete Lynsey Sharp then got slated by some sections of the media for her comments.

Clarkson · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:04

Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring :confused:

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and perhaps more fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

dowie · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:05

Clarkson said:
Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and a lot of fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

this line of argument is a bit silly, we don't segregate based on length of legs, we segregate based on gender

Brookert · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:06

Clarkson said:
Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and a lot of fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

It's not about a 'better' physical specimen though is it.

cheesyboy · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:09

Clarkson said:
Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and perhaps more fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

Being a lanky freak isn't a prohibited attribute in his classification. Whereas being male is a prohibited attribute in women's sport.

Semenya is intersex and, as part of that, has some male attributes which, being male attributes, are prohibited from women's sport.

Ayahuasca · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:10

One look at the jawline tells you her T levels are significantly higher than her competitors.

G-MAN2004 · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:12

Clarkson said:
Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and perhaps more fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

Yeah, but where do you draw the line? In this day and age you can change your gender on the fly and everyone has to respect that otherwise they're 'intolerant'.

I've heard they're changing the prize money for women's tennis so that it is equal to the men's, so what is stopping a man claiming he is a woman just to have an easier time at winning the same amount of money?

Clarkson · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:13

Accept my apologies chaps, I thought she was female but just with higher testosterone. I shall learn to read

So if she is 'intersex'...where exactly can 'she' compete?

doodah · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:16

Feel sorry for her, all she wants to do is run and all we talk about is her hormone levels and gender.

dowie · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:31

Clarkson said:
So if she is 'intersex'...where exactly can 'she' compete?

well there seem to be a few positions on this

one is that we shouldn't exclude minorities and therefore intersex athletes should just go ahead and compete as women if they choose to identify as women

another is that women are a protected category, gender segregation exists to protect women and to allow them to compete, someone who isn't really a 'woman' shouldn't therefore be competing in the female category (I guess at international level you could have an intersex and trans category but at the local club level it would probably have to be the men's category for anyone who isn't fully female)

lastly there is the compromise position that says we allow intersex people to compete but they'll either need their testes removed or will need to take testosterone suppressing medication - this was the case perviously until in 2015 when an Indian athlete went to the CAS and got a ruling to stop this.

strangely enough when Caster was undergoing this treatment her times suddenly became much slower - notice in the below clip where she is interviewed after Lynsey she blames that recent performance issue on an injury etc.. but seemingly miraculously after the CAS made it's silly decision then Caster was suddenly back on top form in the 2016 Olympics

Six6siX · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:38

Make it so that everyone competes as equals. There is no gender distinction. Problem solved?

G-MAN2004 · 4 Jul 2017 at 10:52

Six6siX said:
Make it so that everyone competes as equals. There is no gender distinction. Problem solved?

Imagine the outrage when a woman never wins again.

mmj_uk · 4 Jul 2017 at 11:01

Even if testosterone levels are brought in line with women you can't undo years of male biological development, transgender people should compete in mens sport it's massively unfair on women.

Six6siX · 4 Jul 2017 at 11:15

G-MAN2004 said:
Imagine the outrage when a woman never wins again.

That's equality isn't it? I can't think of a fairer way to do it!

Segregation by gender is not equality, surely

Ayahuasca · 4 Jul 2017 at 11:17

mmj_uk said:
Even if testosterone levels are brought in line with women you can't undo years of male biological development, transgender people should compete with men it's massively unfair on women.

Great point, I remember hearing about this on a Joe Rogan podcast discussing Cris Cyborg in the UFC and how even if she has stopped testosterone she's benefited from years of having higher levels, she's currently serving a 1 year ban for failing a drugs test in December though. I don't believe anyone in her division has the power to knock her out considering her jaw development from years of steroid usage, even in her previous organisation she could take a tremendous beating without ever going unconscious.

h4rm0ny · 4 Jul 2017 at 13:42

Clarkson said:
Accept my apologies chaps, I thought she was female but just with higher testosterone. I shall learn to read

So if she is 'intersex'...where exactly can 'she' compete?

Well, given that at these levels of the sport men are better at it, there should be no problem on allowing her to compete in the men's versions.

I don't think she should be forced or even encouraged to take hormones to alter herself from her natural state. I think that would be wrong. But she has testicles. If she wants to compete, she should have to do it in the men's events. However she may feel, that comes second to preserving the sport.

h4rm0ny · 4 Jul 2017 at 13:47

Six6siX said:
That's equality isn't it? I can't think of a fairer way to do it!

Segregation by gender is not equality, surely

Are weight classes in boxing or judo segregation then? The reality is that whilst any given woman might be better at a sport than any given man - and if she's the one who trains most at that sport probably will be - at the highest levels most sports will be dominated by men.

It's not wrong for separate women's categories so that both sexes can have competitions to see who is best in their category. It is, imo, wrong, for that to be taken away from women by a man with a deformity jumping categories into the women's.

Six6siX · 4 Jul 2017 at 13:53

h4rm0ny said:
Are weight classes in boxing or judo segregation then? The reality is that whilst any given woman might be better at a sport than any given man - and if she's the one who trains most at that sport probably will be - at the highest levels most sports will be dominated by men.

It's not wrong for separate women's categories so that both sexes can have competitions to see who is best in their category. It is, imo, wrong, for that to be taken away from women by a man with a deformity jumping categories into the women's.

Well, yes. It is segregation by definition

only the parameters are different.

The purpose of weight class segregation is to give the opportunity to those who could not otherwise compete because of a weight based disadvantage. How is this any different to gender classification?

I'm (admittedly tongue in cheek) implying that with an obfuscation of gender boundaries comes an inherent problem that renders gender classification ineffective in achieving what it originally set out to do.

h4rm0ny · 4 Jul 2017 at 14:01

Six6siX said:
Well, yes. It is segregation by definition only the parameters are different.

The purpose of weight class segregation is to give the opportunity to those who could not otherwise compete because of a weight based disadvantage. How is this any different to gender classification?

I'm (admittedly tongue in cheek) implying that with an obfuscation of gender boundaries comes an inherent problem that renders gender classification ineffective in achieving what it originally set out to do.

My point was to show that such divisions exist elsewhere in sport and are not controversial. There are marked differences in the average for men and women. To allow both men and women to compete as broadly as possible, voluntary division seems a good solution. Segregation means involuntary separation. Such as apartheid in South Africa or as was the case with Blacks and Whites in the USA. Female athletes are not demanding the right to run against male athletes at the Olympics. They're not segregated. Female athletes want a women-only category so that they can have competitive events. It's not sexism, it's a voluntary and wanted category that nobody involved has any problem with. Not even Caster Semenya who seems happy for there to be a woman's category.

Then you get someone like this who is, perhaps through no fault of their own but nonetheless, an uninvited guest. Their presence denies the opportunity for competition to every actual woman present.

Stringy · 4 Jul 2017 at 14:23

Testosterone doping is banned; if someone has significantly higher levels of testosterone than the rest of their gender then the rest of the field should be allowed to dope-up to match it. Granted, it isn't nice for her that she was born with an unfair advantage over the rest of the field, but I feel even more bad for the unfair treatment of the other runners who are forced to compete against her.