Soldato
So if the root cause of the unfair advantage is testosterone which directly affects performance rather than simple gender, then should the classifications be against a testosterone threshold rather than simple male and female?
Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics
- Thread starter dowie
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The problem is that there will be other factors, before you know it you'll have more categories than the paralympics after you've blended together all the different permutations of Gender/Testosterone/Leg length/bodyweight/vegan etc
Soldato
Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?
Caporegime
It's not the only factor but it's the predominant factor in this case, even outside of sports having higher levels of testosterone benefits you in many areas.
so what happens with normal females that happen to have high testosterone, should they have to have treatment as well?
and I cant see anything on wiki saying she was a man, or had testicles like a post in here. just that the result showed she might have some form of intersex? although outside of that 2 min read, I have no idea who she is or the history.
and I cant see anything on wiki saying she was a man, or had testicles like a post in here. just that the result showed she might have some form of intersex? although outside of that 2 min read, I have no idea who she is or the history.
Normal females can't have a natural testosterone level that is extremely high or they wouldn;t be female. It is only possible by use of drugs or being intersex or male
I believe it was confirmed she has internal testes.
Soldato
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Yeah I guess all bodybuilders/cyclists/weightlifters/fighters etc all just take testosterone for the lolz.
I mean how is this even up for discussion?
I mean how is this even up for discussion?
Soldato
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Yep Cris Cyborg basically is a man....
In the famous last words of Austin Powers, that's a man baby!
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I feel for her as she just wants to run but it'd be a bit like a superhero playing rugby or American football, it'd be pointless and rather boring (after a while, granted).
Yes, it's unfair to her but better unfair to one person than unfair to literally every other female athlete she's competing against. People point to Semenya not getting near the world record - but take a look at a pic of the current world record holder. Nothing natural going on there at all, that record and probably many others need to be expunged - they won't be beat by a clean athlete barring a real freak of a woman coming along.
Yes, it's unfair to her but better unfair to one person than unfair to literally every other female athlete she's competing against. People point to Semenya not getting near the world record - but take a look at a pic of the current world record holder. Nothing natural going on there at all, that record and probably many others need to be expunged - they won't be beat by a clean athlete barring a real freak of a woman coming along.
Soldato
I don't see it as an unfair advantage. She's in the wrong category full stop. You could argue that she isn't quite a man, having only testicles but no penis, but she's more man than woman.
I think because people feel they will be raked over coals for simply calling her a man and are therefore seeking physical distinctions that let them describer her being a man without getting a twitter-storm of abuse for actually saying it.
Soldato
She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.
But neither is she a woman.
That's intersex for you.
But neither is she a woman.
That's intersex for you.
Soldato
Nor would the vast majority of people you do accept as men have a chance running against top male runners.
Soldato
I wasn't suggesting that her not being able to compete is what makes her not a man. Simply that categorising her as a man doesn't make it 'simple' - that just excludes intersex athletes altogether. A better solution would be one where intersex people can compete somewhere. Previous solution was hormone treatment, and seemed to mitigate Semenya's advantage somewhat.
Exactly there does need to be different classes like in the Paralympics separate from womens/mens but if transgender people are to compete in single sex professional sport then it should be mens. Women aren't going to be able to compete against people whose bodies developed as a biological male and will gradually get pushed out.
because we segregate based on gender not based on how tall someone is etc.. this was answered already in the first few posts
she's an intersex athlete competing in a woman's event, as a result she has a huge advantage due to her internal testes and high testosterone levels (which is one of the main reasons for male athletes having better performance in athletic events than female athletes) - the compromise is to allow intersex (or indeed trans) people to compete provided they either artificially lower their testosterone or have their testes removed (personally I think this is a big of a fudge as they've still got other advantages as a result of being essentially males without penises who've been brought up and identify as females)
indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl
Soldato
It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.
The hormonal or genetic (IANA Doctor) influences that caused her to develop as a girl (in terms of vagina, internal testes - rather like ovaries etc) would also affect her in other ways that would mean she is not fully male. This may be height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity etc.
Soldato
The thing is, you are judging her by her ability. You suggest she can't compete with me and therefore look for a solution where they can compete. But she IS a man in practically all ways that matter for athletic performance. But like the huge majority of men on the planet, she cannot compete with the world's top male athletes. Not because she is half-way between a man and a woman, but because she's just not one of the world's top athletes. What if she were someone who COULD compete with top male athletes? Would you deny her the right to compete against them and confine her to a category of her own? A vanishingly small one. You're seeking a compromise where this third category can go and compete fairly, but that category exists and is the men's events. She's simply not as good as other men who compete at that level.
I honestly find mandating hormone treatments to compete a very bad solution. It's not forcing her to take them as she could decide to quit running, but it's a lot of pressure. I don't think anyone should sending out the message that people need to be hormone treated to make them normal. She was born that way. Society should not say she needs to change. I also am hesitant to start defining sex as "you have X level of testosterone". Let her be who she is, but require her to compete in the male events as she should. That will mean that she doesn't place, I expect. But that's the same as the vast majority of other men on the planet. It's not unfair.
Soldato
She's a man with no penis.
I know she's intersex and not male, I didn't claim she was male. I did highlight that if it wasn't for this defect she'd have been male though, that is all I was highlighting there, that essentially as a result of this defect a person that otherwise would have been a male baby was born intersex/without a penis
I'd be inclined to agree but the compromise has come about as gender testing is seen as being highly unethical these days, thus we've instead got the crude solution of testing for testosterone as a proxy as that is one of the main advantages and reasons for segregation (this could also allow trans athletes to compete which is another can of worms in itself)