Soldato
So if the root cause of the unfair advantage is testosterone which directly affects performance rather than simple gender, then should the classifications be against a testosterone threshold rather than simple male and female?
The problem is that there will be other factors, before you know it you'll have more categories than the paralympics after you've blended together all the different permutations of Gender/Testosterone/Leg length/bodyweight/vegan etcSo if the root cause of the unfair advantage is testosterone which directly affects performance rather than simple gender, then should the classifications be against a testosterone threshold rather than simple male and female?
Normal females can't have a natural testosterone level that is extremely high or they wouldn;t be female. It is only possible by use of drugs or being intersex or maleso what happens with normal females that happen to have high testosterone, should they have to have treatment as well?
and I cant see anything on wiki saying she was a man, or had testicles like a post in here. just that the result showed she might have some form of intersex? although outside of that 2 min read, I have no idea who she is or the history.
Great point, I remember hearing about this on a Joe Rogan podcast discussing Cris Cyborg in the UFC and how even if she has stopped testosterone she's benefited from years of having higher levels, she's currently serving a 1 year ban for failing a drugs test in December though. I don't believe anyone in her division has the power to knock her out considering her jaw development from years of steroid usage, even in her previous organisation she could take a tremendous beating without ever going unconscious.
Testosterone doping is banned; if someone has significantly higher levels of testosterone than the rest of their gender then the rest of the field should be allowed to dope-up to match it. Granted, it isn't nice for her that she was born with an unfair advantage over the rest of the field, but I feel even more bad for the unfair treatment of the other runners who are forced to compete against her.
Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?
She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.
I wasn't suggesting that her not being able to compete is what makes her not a man. Simply that categorising her as a man doesn't make it 'simple' - that just excludes intersex athletes altogether. A better solution would be one where intersex people can compete somewhere. Previous solution was hormone treatment, and seemed to mitigate Semenya's advantage somewhat.Nor would the vast majority of people you do accept as men have a chance running against top male runners.
She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.
But neither is she a woman.
That's intersex for you.
Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?
I don't see it as an unfair advantage. She's in the wrong category full stop. You could argue that she isn't quite a man, having only testicles but no penis, but she's more man than woman.
It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl
I wasn't suggesting that her not being able to compete is what makes her not a man. Simply that categorising her as a man doesn't make it 'simple' - that just excludes intersex athletes altogether. A better solution would be one where intersex people can compete somewhere. Previous solution was hormone treatment, and seemed to mitigate Semenya's advantage somewhat.
because we segregate based on gender not based on how tall someone is etc.. this was answered already in the first few posts
she's an intersex athlete competing in a woman's event, as a result she has a huge advantage due to her internal testes and high testosterone levels (which is one of the main reasons for male athletes having better performance in athletic events than female athletes) - the compromise is to allow intersex (or indeed trans) people to compete provided they either artificially lower their testosterone or have their testes removed (personally I think this is a big of a fudge as they've still got other advantages as a result of being essentially males without penises who've been brought up and identify as females)
indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl
It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.
It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.
The hormonal or genetic (IANA Doctor) influences that caused her to develop as a girl (in terms of vagina, internal testes - rather like ovaries etc) would also affect her in other ways that would mean she is not fully male. This may be height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity etc.
I honestly find mandating hormone treatments to compete a very bad solution. It's not forcing her to take them as she could decide to quit running, but it's a lot of pressure. I don't think anyone should sending out the message that people need to be hormone treated to make them normal. She was born that way. Society should not say she needs to change. I also am hesitant to start defining sex as "you have X level of testosterone". Let her be who she is, but require her to compete in the male events as she should. That will mean that she doesn't place, I expect. But that's the same as the vast majority of other men on the planet. It's not unfair.