Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[Six6siX]

So if the root cause of the unfair advantage is testosterone which directly affects performance rather than simple gender, then should the classifications be against a testosterone threshold rather than simple male and female?

 

[Stringy]

So if the root cause of the unfair advantage is testosterone which directly affects performance rather than simple gender, then should the classifications be against a testosterone threshold rather than simple male and female?

The problem is that there will be other factors, before you know it you'll have more categories than the paralympics after you've blended together all the different permutations of Gender/Testosterone/Leg length/bodyweight/vegan etc

 

[Six6siX]

Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?

 

[Ayahuasca]

It's not the only factor but it's the predominant factor in this case, even outside of sports having higher levels of testosterone benefits you in many areas.

 

[Glaucus]

so what happens with normal females that happen to have high testosterone, should they have to have treatment as well?
and I cant see anything on wiki saying she was a man, or had testicles like a post in here. just that the result showed she might have some form of intersex? although outside of that 2 min read, I have no idea who she is or the history.

 

[XeNoN89]

so what happens with normal females that happen to have high testosterone, should they have to have treatment as well?
and I cant see anything on wiki saying she was a man, or had testicles like a post in here. just that the result showed she might have some form of intersex? although outside of that 2 min read, I have no idea who she is or the history.

Normal females can't have a natural testosterone level that is extremely high or they wouldn;t be female. It is only possible by use of drugs or being intersex or male

I believe it was confirmed she has internal testes.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Yeah I guess all bodybuilders/cyclists/weightlifters/fighters etc all just take testosterone for the lolz.

I mean how is this even up for discussion?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Great point, I remember hearing about this on a Joe Rogan podcast discussing Cris Cyborg in the UFC and how even if she has stopped testosterone she's benefited from years of having higher levels, she's currently serving a 1 year ban for failing a drugs test in December though. I don't believe anyone in her division has the power to knock her out considering her jaw development from years of steroid usage, even in her previous organisation she could take a tremendous beating without ever going unconscious.

Yep Cris Cyborg basically is a man....

In the famous last words of Austin Powers, that's a man baby!

 

[Washout]

I feel for her as she just wants to run but it'd be a bit like a superhero playing rugby or American football, it'd be pointless and rather boring (after a while, granted).

Yes, it's unfair to her but better unfair to one person than unfair to literally every other female athlete she's competing against. People point to Semenya not getting near the world record - but take a look at a pic of the current world record holder. Nothing natural going on there at all, that record and probably many others need to be expunged - they won't be beat by a clean athlete barring a real freak of a woman coming along.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Testosterone doping is banned; if someone has significantly higher levels of testosterone than the rest of their gender then the rest of the field should be allowed to dope-up to match it. Granted, it isn't nice for her that she was born with an unfair advantage over the rest of the field, but I feel even more bad for the unfair treatment of the other runners who are forced to compete against her.

I don't see it as an unfair advantage. She's in the wrong category full stop. You could argue that she isn't quite a man, having only testicles but no penis, but she's more man than woman.

Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?

I think because people feel they will be raked over coals for simply calling her a man and are therefore seeking physical distinctions that let them describer her being a man without getting a twitter-storm of abuse for actually saying it.

 

[cheesyboy]

She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.

But neither is she a woman.

That's intersex for you.

 

[h4rm0ny]

She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.

Nor would the vast majority of people you do accept as men have a chance running against top male runners.

 

[cheesyboy]

Nor would the vast majority of people you do accept as men have a chance running against top male runners.

I wasn't suggesting that her not being able to compete is what makes her not a man. Simply that categorising her as a man doesn't make it 'simple' - that just excludes intersex athletes altogether. A better solution would be one where intersex people can compete somewhere. Previous solution was hormone treatment, and seemed to mitigate Semenya's advantage somewhat.

 

[mmj_uk]

She's not a man. Wouldn't have a chance running against men.

But neither is she a woman.

That's intersex for you.

Exactly there does need to be different classes like in the Paralympics separate from womens/mens but if transgender people are to compete in single sex professional sport then it should be mens. Women aren't going to be able to compete against people whose bodies developed as a biological male and will gradually get pushed out.

 

[dowie]

Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?

because we segregate based on gender not based on how tall someone is etc.. this was answered already in the first few posts

she's an intersex athlete competing in a woman's event, as a result she has a huge advantage due to her internal testes and high testosterone levels (which is one of the main reasons for male athletes having better performance in athletic events than female athletes) - the compromise is to allow intersex (or indeed trans) people to compete provided they either artificially lower their testosterone or have their testes removed (personally I think this is a big of a fudge as they've still got other advantages as a result of being essentially males without penises who've been brought up and identify as females)

I don't see it as an unfair advantage. She's in the wrong category full stop. You could argue that she isn't quite a man, having only testicles but no penis, but she's more man than woman.

indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl

 

[Sasahara]

If the competitor has a Y chromosome, it should be classed as male whatever he or she looks like or identifies as.

She isn't a woman and isn't good enough to compete with men so should go find another job like everyone else? :<

 

[cheesyboy]

indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl

It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.

The hormonal or genetic (IANA Doctor) influences that caused her to develop as a girl (in terms of vagina, internal testes - rather like ovaries etc) would also affect her in other ways that would mean she is not fully male. This may be height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity etc.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I wasn't suggesting that her not being able to compete is what makes her not a man. Simply that categorising her as a man doesn't make it 'simple' - that just excludes intersex athletes altogether. A better solution would be one where intersex people can compete somewhere. Previous solution was hormone treatment, and seemed to mitigate Semenya's advantage somewhat.

The thing is, you are judging her by her ability. You suggest she can't compete with me and therefore look for a solution where they can compete. But she IS a man in practically all ways that matter for athletic performance. But like the huge majority of men on the planet, she cannot compete with the world's top male athletes. Not because she is half-way between a man and a woman, but because she's just not one of the world's top athletes. What if she were someone who COULD compete with top male athletes? Would you deny her the right to compete against them and confine her to a category of her own? A vanishingly small one. You're seeking a compromise where this third category can go and compete fairly, but that category exists and is the men's events. She's simply not as good as other men who compete at that level.

because we segregate based on gender not based on how tall someone is etc.. this was answered already in the first few posts

she's an intersex athlete competing in a woman's event, as a result she has a huge advantage due to her internal testes and high testosterone levels (which is one of the main reasons for male athletes having better performance in athletic events than female athletes) - the compromise is to allow intersex (or indeed trans) people to compete provided they either artificially lower their testosterone or have their testes removed (personally I think this is a big of a fudge as they've still got other advantages as a result of being essentially males without penises who've been brought up and identify as females)

indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl

I honestly find mandating hormone treatments to compete a very bad solution. It's not forcing her to take them as she could decide to quit running, but it's a lot of pressure. I don't think anyone should sending out the message that people need to be hormone treated to make them normal. She was born that way. Society should not say she needs to change. I also am hesitant to start defining sex as "you have X level of testosterone". Let her be who she is, but require her to compete in the male events as she should. That will mean that she doesn't place, I expect. But that's the same as the vast majority of other men on the planet. It's not unfair.

 

[h4rm0ny]

It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.

She's a man with no penis.

 

[dowie]

It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.

The hormonal or genetic (IANA Doctor) influences that caused her to develop as a girl (in terms of vagina, internal testes - rather like ovaries etc) would also affect her in other ways that would mean she is not fully male. This may be height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity etc.

I know she's intersex and not male, I didn't claim she was male. I did highlight that if it wasn't for this defect she'd have been male though, that is all I was highlighting there, that essentially as a result of this defect a person that otherwise would have been a male baby was born intersex/without a penis

I honestly find mandating hormone treatments to compete a very bad solution. It's not forcing her to take them as she could decide to quit running, but it's a lot of pressure. I don't think anyone should sending out the message that people need to be hormone treated to make them normal. She was born that way. Society should not say she needs to change. I also am hesitant to start defining sex as "you have X level of testosterone". Let her be who she is, but require her to compete in the male events as she should. That will mean that she doesn't place, I expect. But that's the same as the vast majority of other men on the planet. It's not unfair.

I'd be inclined to agree but the compromise has come about as gender testing is seen as being highly unethical these days, thus we've instead got the crude solution of testing for testosterone as a proxy as that is one of the main advantages and reasons for segregation (this could also allow trans athletes to compete which is another can of worms in itself)