Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

Would you find it fair to put those intersex within a Trans or other based category as its too difficult and outside the general realms of male/female?
No, I would not find it fair, precisely because Trans-types have either purposely altered themselves, or are merely claiming womanhood on the basis of nothing more than their say-so.
Intersex people, by contrast, are competing exactly as they were born and raised.

As far as I'm aware, the original court case involved full medical checks of Caster that established Caster was male, both chromosonally and as regards organs that were present.
If that is the case, then the assertions are that her physical form would widely be regarded as female, by doctors, without the detailed analysis of chromosomal testing.
However, until then she would presumably have had some measure of physical examinations, at various points in her life including some kind of administrative procedure to permit her entry into events, at which point she'd have been similarly declared female?

He's just trying some semantic argument here, by "medically recognised as women" he's presumably trying to include Caster as a "woman" who has been "medically recognised" as such in so far as she was (to use gender ideology lingo) "assigned female at birth" by a doctor.
He's actually raising a very specific point, to differentiate between a male deliberately pretending to be female, and an individual that has been told she is a female all her life.
It's one thing to just say you're female and have someone shoot that down... but to be told this and raised as this, and to then base your career and your life on this, only for someone else to suddenly come along and forcibly alter your sex for you is an entirely different can of moral worms.

It's got no bearing on the reality that she's a biological male with the advantages that come with being a biological male, it's just an attempt at obfuscation because there isn't really any justification to support a pro-Caster argument.
I'm still waiting to hear some official medical confirmation of any specific condition, as well as any proven advantage her condition provides.
So far all I've seen is one newspaper declaring her genetically male, and some conjecture about the reasoning behind a sports regulatory body's decision, which is frequently opposed by similar bodies and numerous medical specialists.
 
He's actually raising a very specific point, to differentiate between a male deliberately pretending to be female, and an individual that has been told she is a female all her life.
It's one thing to just say you're female and have someone shoot that down... but to be told this and raised as this, and to then base your career and your life on this, only for someone else to suddenly come along and forcibly alter your sex for you is an entirely different can of moral worms.

She knows full well what she is and has known for years now... whether she knew as a kid or not isn't a good basis for any argument here and is perhaps just a criticism of the lack of development of the SA healthcare system and/or SA doctors.

I'm still waiting to hear some official medical confirmation of any specific condition, as well as any proven advantage her condition provides.

It's literally on her wiki page with a citation to a Guardian article:

Wikipedia:
Guardian quoting CAS:
In its decision it also said that 46 XY 5-ARD (5-alpha-reductase deficiency) athletes – such as Semenya – have “circulating testosterone at the level of the male 46 XY population and not at the level of the female 46 XX population. This gives 46 XY 5-ARD athletes a significant sporting advantage over 46 XX female athletes.”
 
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I'm still waiting to hear some official medical confirmation of any specific condition, as well as any proven advantage her condition provides.
So far all I've seen is one newspaper declaring her genetically male, and some conjecture about the reasoning behind a sports regulatory body's decision, which is frequently opposed by similar bodies and numerous medical specialists.

Link to the original CAS judgment from 2019 which includes offical medical confirmation of the conditions and advantages provided by said condition is in the link
 
If that is the case, then the assertions are that her physical form would widely be regarded as female, by doctors, without the detailed analysis of chromosomal testing.
However, until then she would presumably have had some measure of physical examinations, at various points in her life including some kind of administrative procedure to permit her entry into events, at which point she'd have been similarly declared female?
They don't "sex" athletes to determine they are women to see if they can compete in women's sport, it's taken on good faith and obviously paperwork like a birth certificate. My understanding in the Semenya case is that other female competitors raised concerns over Caster's physical appearance in the changing room.

I'm still waiting to hear some official medical confirmation of any specific condition, as well as any proven advantage her condition provides.
So far all I've seen is one newspaper declaring her genetically male, and some conjecture about the reasoning behind a sports regulatory body's decision, which is frequently opposed by similar bodies and numerous medical specialists.

Edit: Most pertinent bit is probably this:
it follows that it may be legitimate to regulate the right to participate in the female category by reference to those biological factors rather than legal status alone
 
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Link to the original CAS judgment from 2019 which includes offical medical confirmation of the conditions and advantages provided by said condition is in the link
Thank-you for that.
It still doesn't go into much detail substantiating the presumed testosterone advantage, beyond taking as a given that it is accepted, and even then the CAS has noted the concerns over the validity of that presumption, but states that it is beyond their remit to substantiate it.

They don't "sex" athletes to determine they are women to see if they can compete in women's sport, it's taken on good faith and obviously paperwork like a birth certificate. My understanding in the Semenya case is that other female competitors raised concerns over Caster's physical appearance in the changing room.
Not currently, but they have until quite recently.
'Gender validation' has a history of ignoring that "good faith" and demanding women submit to examination, from as early as 1966 where the IAAF required all female competitors to be inspected at both the Commonwealth Games and the European Championships.

"From 1958-1992, all female athletes underwent mandatory sex verification tests [Barr body] before taking part in any IAAF or IOC event"
"This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness".


Edit: Most pertinent bit is probably this: "it follows that it may be legitimate to regulate the right to participate in the female category by reference to those biological factors rather than legal status alone"
I note also the immediately-following sentence: "This is because the reason for the separation between male and female categories in competitive athletics is ultimately founded on biology rather than legal status"
So in order to remain fair, surely new regulations should require every single athlete, female and male, to take the same battery of genetic testing, biological assessments and physical inspections?

She knows full well what she is and has known for years now... whether she knew as a kid or not isn't a good basis for any argument here and is perhaps just a criticism of the lack of development of the SA healthcare system and/or SA doctors.
Does she... and do you?

"The [CAS] Panel also stresses that while much of the argument in this proceeding has centred around the “fairness” of permitting Ms. Semenya to compete against other female athletes, there can be no suggestion that Ms. Semenya (or any other female athletes in the same position as Ms. Semenya) has done anything wrong. This is not a case about cheating or wrongdoing of any sort. Ms. Semenya is not accused of breaching any rule. Her participation and success in elite female athletics is entirely beyond reproach and she has done nothing whatsoever to warrant any personal criticism".

She. Her.
Wikipedia:
Semenya is an intersex woman,
Woman. Says so, right there.

She is genetically male and yet, in spite of this, most people, including you, still refer to her as a female. She was born female-presenting with external female body parts, she's grown up being told by everyone that she's female, she built her life and career on being female and even now you're calling her female.
Other people have taken it upon themselves to redefine her reality and her life, yet still seem to be reaching the same conclusion...
 
It still doesn't go into much detail substantiating the presumed testosterone advantage, beyond taking as a given that it is accepted, and even then the CAS has noted the concerns over the validity of that presumption, but states that it is beyond their remit to substantiate it.

Presumed? Also it's not just testosterone, she's a biological male, that she has a micro peen and a hole is kinda irrelevant to that, you do understand that males have an advantage in athletics right?

Does she... and do you?

Yes, and yes as already stated.

Woman. Says so, right there.

She is genetically male and yet, in spite of this, most people, including you, still refer to her as a female. [...] and even now you're calling her female.

Nope, you're confusing gender identity, legal sex and biological sex here. I'm using the pronouns she uses in accordance with her (social) gender identity and I'm pointing out that she's biologically a male, there is no contradiction there just misunderstanding on your part.
 
Presumed? Also it's not just testosterone, she's a biological male, that she has a micro peen and a hole is kinda irrelevant to that, you do understand that males have an advantage in athletics right?
Yes, presumed.
The presumed testosterone-driven advantage idea has been widely challenged by various scientists.
Testosterone-driven development does define whether someone becomes male or female, and drives that secondary development in puberty, yes... But where is the proof that even those of the same sex with higher (natural) testosterone have an advantage over those of the same sex with lower testosterone? Moreover, genetic males with AIS are not subject to the IAAF regulations, despite being male.

And yes, it is just testosterone. This case is ALL about IAAF ruling on testosterone levels.

Her karyotype has been confirmed, and her disorder seemingly substantiated, yet her degree and position on the spectrum of presentation has not, beyond conflicting anecdotes from some of those with whom she's shared a changing room. So it's quite funny to see your obsession with "micro-peens" again arise, yet you have also not substantiated this assumption, either... unless you have seen something while peeping through holes in her locker room?

Nope, you're confusing gender identity, legal sex and biological sex here. I'm using the pronouns she uses in accordance with her (social) gender identity and I'm pointing out that she's biologically a male, there is no contradiction there just misunderstanding on your part.
I'm not misunderstanding anything. This thread is about someone's biological sex, specifically excluding legal sex or social identity. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies that make it a complex and compounded issue.
 
As a % the scientists/doctors who question the innate biological advantages being male has over female - testosterone/lung capacity/muscle mass/muscle recovery etc is a lot lower than the % who question the effectiveness of vaccines or climate change theories and yet you are quite happy to call those people anti vaxers or climate change deniers, ct nuts basically despite there being far more of them. What's the difference here? Could it be ideological driven?
 
Upon further research in to this topic and person, got to be classed as a dude.

Assigned female at birth by mistake, clearly due to the genital differences and doctors being human, given everything else about this person points to them being a male.
Intersex, male or whatever, but its clear they are not a biological female and therefore should not compete in biological female sports.
 
Yes, presumed.

Nope, do you not understand why there are separate events for males and females? It's not a presumption... it's real differences.

Her karyotype has been confirmed, and her disorder seemingly substantiated, yet her degree and position on the spectrum of presentation has not, beyond conflicting anecdotes from some of those with whom she's shared a changing room. So it's quite funny to see your obsession with "micro-peens" again arise, yet you have also not substantiated this assumption, either... unless you have seen something while peeping through holes in her locker room?

Doesn't need to be established... the size of her clit or micro peen has zero bearing on athletic performance which was the point... you've totally missed that it seems.

I'm not misunderstanding anything. This thread is about someone's biological sex, specifically excluding legal sex or social identity. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies that make it a complex and compounded issue.

You were misunderstanding you thought I'd referred to her as being female by using the pronouns she prefers, that's conflating biological sex and gender. If you understood that you'd not have needed to question it nor would you be saying it's complicated when it isn't.
 
Would it not bit be simplest to just ban these people with disatisfaction and attempts to claim change to their born sex from competive sport where there's an inarguable performance bias by sex?

Just accept it as a consequence of their vague sexuality? Pandering to them just opens the door to further argument, cost and disgruntlement over results.
 
Would it not bit be simplest to just ban these people with disatisfaction and attempts to claim change to their born sex from competive sport where there's an inarguable performance bias by sex?

Just accept it as a consequence of their vague sexuality? Pandering to them just opens the door to further argument, cost and disgruntlement over results.
Alternatively, if there are no differences between the sexes and anyone can identify as however they wish then just get rid of categories and have it be every 'man' for themselves. Surely that's the fairest outcome no?
 
Alternatively, if there are no differences between the sexes and anyone can identify as however they wish then just get rid of categories and have it be every 'man' for themselves. Surely that's the fairest outcome no?

IF there were no differences between the sexes then female categories wouldn't have come into existence. There clearly is a significant difference and now a tiny amount of people who don't fit neatly into the man/woman category are taking advantage of the changing language around gender to force themselves into the female space because they can't compete and win in the male space. They argue that they have a 'right' to compete - they don't, they have to qualify just like all other athletes but they can't qualify against males because they are actually pretty bad athletes and can only compete if they cheat by qualifying against and then competing against females.

Caster Semenya is a cheat. Lia Thomas is a Cheat. Both cheats, just with different starting positions - one has a DSD and one has a paraphilia. Neither are female.
 
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"From 1958-1992, all female athletes underwent mandatory sex verification tests [Barr body] before taking part in any IAAF or IOC event"
"This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness".



I note also the immediately-following sentence: "This is because the reason for the separation between male and female categories in competitive athletics is ultimately founded on biology rather than legal status"
So in order to remain fair, surely new regulations should require every single athlete, female and male, to take the same battery of genetic testing, biological assessments and physical inspections?
Yes, we've moved on from female athletes lining up naked for a doctor to inspect them and as your own link states the testing methodology later on wasn't perfect either so that it was completely abandoned in 1992.

Why would men have to take tests to prove they were women? There is an argument that as sex is a protected characteristic and thus it infringes women's right to be subject to extra testing to establish they're women, but it's daft to then expect men to be subject to the same tests. This is actually one of Caster Semenya's argument in the recent case - because the female competitors themselves aren't subject to this extra testing or restrictions.

She. Her.

Woman. Says so, right there.

She is genetically male and yet, in spite of this, most people, including you, still refer to her as a female. She was born female-presenting with external female body parts, she's grown up being told by everyone that she's female, she built her life and career on being female and even now you're calling her female.
Other people have taken it upon themselves to redefine her reality and her life, yet still seem to be reaching the same conclusion...
It's called respect and compassion. Some people get dealt a ****ty hand by the randomness of life. Caster found out in a very public and no doubt humiliating manner. Other people tend to just find out when they go for fertility treatment because they can't get pregnant.
 
These sorts of issues would be a lot clearer if people just understood what it actually means to be male/ female

For starters people should be reminded that male/ female are terms that apply to all sexually reproducing organisms.

And that as such being male or female isn't defined, in humans, by chromosones or genitals because the definitions of male and female don't just relate to humans.

The former is just the means by which sex is 'coded' in humans and the later refers to a primary sexual characteristic not what actually defines a someone as being male or female.


When you understand this fact other facts become clear... such as that a man does not become female if he has his penis and testicles removed and that a human born with chromosones other than the usual XX or XY arrangement is still either male or female*

*there are some extremely rare cases of humans with certain types of mosacism where this gets a lot more complicated.

That doesn't mean that chromosones and external genitals aren't a very reliable indicator of a humans sex just that they aren't what defines it.

For example if we only ever used natal gentials to sex humans the results would be very accurate.

Caster was born with testes and no ovaries.

Therefore it is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact that he is male.

The question then comes about what should be done with this information. All the stuff I have read confirms that Caster has a normal male range level of testosterone (T) and that his body reacts to T in a normal fashion when it comes to the physical development of his bone structure and muscles and hence whey he didn't grow breasts during puberty.

From the photos I have seen of him (particularly with his wife) and interviews of him it is also apparent that he presents 'socially' as male.



Reporting of his earlier life also casts doubt on the argument some like to trot out the he was 'raised as a girl' (which still would not make it right for him to compete in women's events). He seems to have started 'presenting' as a female at an age that suspiciously seems to coincide with the early years of his professional athletic career.....

The headteacher of the school where controversial athlete Caster Semenya graduated has admitted he thought she was a boy.

Eric Modiba, head of the Nthema Secondary School, said that it wasn’t until Grade 11 that he realised she was a girl.

He said that Caster wore the male version of the uniform to school - yellow shirts and grey pants – while all the other girls wore reddish-brown skirts and yellow shirts.

In an interview with South Africa's Beeld newspaper Mr Modiba said: "She was always rough and played with the boys. She liked soccer and she wore pants to school. She never wore a dress.

"It was only in Grade 11 that I realised she's a girl."



There is also some evidence that scouts deliberately sought out and recruited males with certain DSD's to compete which is why a womans race in the 2016 Olympics ended up with three males taking the podium positions in the women's 800 meters race.

So what are we left with?


Both as a matter of fact and as far as one might be sympathetic to another's situation it's clear that Caster should have no place in a woman's sporting event.
 
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Have races of clean natural athletes then have a I am a drug cheat / insert whatever sex here championship.
 
and yet you are quite happy to call those people anti vaxers or climate change deniers, ct nuts basically despite there being far more of them. What's the difference here? Could it be ideological driven?
Where have I ever said that?
I would look at their argument first before deciding whether or not I thought they were talking ********.
Nope, do you not understand why there are separate events for males and females? It's not a presumption... it's real differences.



Doesn't need to be established... the size of her clit or micro peen has zero bearing on athletic performance which was the point... you've totally missed that it seems.



You were misunderstanding you thought I'd referred to her as being female by using the pronouns she prefers, that's conflating biological sex and gender. If you understood that you'd not have needed to question it nor would you be saying it's complicated when it isn't.
Yes, I understand the reasons for the separate categories. That's not the point I am addressing.
I also understand the reason why biological males with androgen insensitivity are allowed to compete in the female category. The fact that they do compete, and offer considerable competition, suggests that testosterone is not the driving factor in performance.... but then, you already know this, because I've made that point before.

Whether or not she has a micro-peen is clearly of immense significance, as you frequently assert that she has one. That you continue to bring it up shows that establishing it as undeniabe fact is quite obviously important to you, even when by your own admission it is not relevant to the discussion.

And again, no, there is no misunderstanding.
The source you cited specifically said she's a woman. Not genetic male, who identifies as female, or anything like that. Woman.


Why would men have to take tests to prove they were women? .
They wouldn't... but they should take tests to prove they are men.
I'm sure the vast majority will 'pass' their sex test, but I'd not be surprised to find a few with unexpected results...Either way, though, if women have to prove they are women, it's only fair that men should have to prove they are men, no?
 
Yes, I understand the reasons for the separate categories. That's not the point I am addressing.

Why not address it? She's a biological male after all.

I also understand the reason why biological males with androgen insensitivity are allowed to compete in the female category. The fact that they do compete, and offer considerable competition, suggests that testosterone is not the driving factor in performance.... but then, you already know this, because I've made that point before.

Why? Are you confused by people with partial sensitivity or are you confused by the presence of other factors impacting performance? It's unclear what argument you're attempting to make there or how it relates to this case?

Whether or not she has a micro-peen is clearly of immense significance, as you frequently assert that she has one. That you continue to bring it up shows that establishing it as undeniabe fact is quite obviously important to you, even when by your own admission it is not relevant to the discussion.

No that doesn't logically follow, I didn't say it's not relevant to the discussion, try to read more carefully, you're just getting confused over quite straightforward arguments yet again. That she's got odd junk is the reason for her identity, it has nothing directly to do with athletic performance (read my post again where I literally said that already). How is that hard to follow?

And again, no, there is no misunderstanding.
The source you cited specifically said she's a woman. Not genetic male, who identifies as female, or anything like that. Woman.

Are you sure about that as it appears you're still conflating gender and sex... do you want to try again - what specifically is the issue with the source calling her a woman?

I can call her a woman too.. so what?
 
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They wouldn't... but they should take tests to prove they are men.
I'm sure the vast majority will 'pass' their sex test, but I'd not be surprised to find a few with unexpected results...Either way, though, if women have to prove they are women, it's only fair that men should have to prove they are men, no?

It's not necessary for people competing in male sports and athletic events to prove they are male because there is no competitive advantage to being female in almost any sport.

The 'fairness' is ensured by the removal of males from women's sports.
 

RIP para athletics.
49 (yes Forty Nine) year old trans athlete taking a bronze medal at the Para Athletics World Championship.
If something isn’t done all woman’s sports will be dominated by male to female trans athletes.
 
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