Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[ttaskmaster]

Here's a brief video, by a bodybuilder.

Have to watch later. Video won't play on work device.
Is this just one bloke's opinion, or an authoritative examination of the wider scene with actual proof?

Just had a quick gander at some of the studies quoted in your linked article, and the events where a high t level is beneficial were the 'explosive' events such as sprints, Javelin, shot put, long jump etc etc. Where the effectiveness of testosterone comes into play is the high endurance based events.

Is this a comparison of individual levels against individual performances, or just a general assertion about how testosterone works?

*Alistair Overeem, Vitor Belfort, Dan Henderson, Chael Sonnen and numerous others giggle to themselves after reading this"

Do you have data on their exact testosterone levels?

 

[Hodders]

The single biggest take away is that Semenya is having a pretty torrid time - her (I assume pronoun of choice) mental health must be taking a battering - all she wants to do is compete.

Compete - here's the rub. I would suggest that for sport to remain entertaining it has to remain equal enough to be competitive. Watching her win races by a country mile EVERY time is not in anyone's interest.

But equally, elite level sport is all about gaining an advantage, train harder, use the latest equipment. Where does fair stop?

Ian Thorpe (Aussie Swimmer 16 World/Olympic gold medals) has size SEVENTEEN feet - he has flippers - is that an unfair biological advantage? Should a swimmer be able to have plastic surgery and give themselves webbed fingers?

I suggest that the "men's" and "women's" categories are simply out-dated. But what else can we use? Height/foot size for swimming, FTP/kg or VO2 max for cycling?

No idea - but I do agree that Semenya should not be allowed to compete with women who do not share her huge "natural" advantages.

 

[sidimmu]

Do you have data on their exact testosterone levels?

Quick google across each one should be able to get you their levels at time of bad testing.
Overeems failed test - https://web.archive.org/web/2012042...ight-may-reapply-with-nsac-on-december-27.mma
I know this is purely results of testing and not against pure performance indicators.

But, you can look at the athlete and their performance when TRT was allowed to when it was not allowed, there is VAST, VAST differences in those fighters identified above and their abilities, explosiveness, cardio and more.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Overall there seem to be very erratic results and not much to strongly substantiate even a broad correlation between T-levels and athletic performance.

I struggle with that statement unless it is in a very narrow sense. The fastest 15 year old 100m sprinting boy in the US would generally run a time suitable to qualify for to the Womens Olympics final. By college age the top 500 US boys will outperform the fastest female 100m sprinter in the World. Male puberty confers males an undeniable athletic advantage over females.

 

[GGizmo]

I think this person's situation is different to the trans debate as s/he is intersex.

Something I heard recently and looked in to it Caster has fathered children.

The wife Caster is with gave birth twice.

Intersex people are unique as they are both biological male and female.

 

[dowie]

From the studies I've read, testosterone level is not a reliable predictor of performance and in a number of cases, performance with both genders was better when levels were lower.
Overall there seem to be very erratic results and not much to strongly substantiate even a broad correlation between T-levels and athletic performance.

The complicated truth about testosterone’s effect on athletic performance

The debate over whether to allow female athletes with high testosterone to compete with other women has been heated, but not backed by a lot of science. That's because there simply isn't much out there, though that's not to say we can't draw some important conclusions from what we do know.

www.popsci.com

There's a bit of bait and switch going on in that article... for a start:

If you give a person testosterone, society considers it a performance enhancer. If you naturally have lots of the hormone, though, it’s a competitive advantage—if you’re a man. But if you’re a woman, at least according to some of the biggest sports associations in the world, it’s just plain unfair.

Caster is a man, biologically so they appear to have already conceded that it is a competitive advantage... that you can muddle things with female athletes because of the presence of multiple factors isn't necessarily relevant for her.

“There are certainly a number of factors that affect athletic performance and testosterone is certainly only one of those factors,” says Joanna Harper, a medical physicist at Loughborough University who focuses on trans athletes. “However, if you’re looking for factors that differentiate male performance from female performance, the majority of biologists feel that testosterone is the primary factor that distinguishes that.”

Of course, males having other factors that benefit them applies to Castor too, so arguably even testosterone limits aren't necessarily fair... in some sports things like a height advantage, for example, may be important etc..

 

[Moley]

I think this person's situation is different to the trans debate as s/he is intersex.

Something I heard recently and looked in to it Caster has fathered children.

The wife Caster is with gave birth twice.

Intersex people are unique as they are both biological male and female.

That last line isn't correct. Intersex people are overall one or the other but haven't developed fully for a number of reasons. This graphic goes into detail: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPVe3MPWYAIzGmx?format=png

Caster is Karyotype 46XY SRY+

 

[C Kent]

Is this a comparison of individual levels against individual performances, or just a general assertion about how testosterone works?

Out of the 4 I checked 2 were small sample sizes of men/boys (8 triathletes in one and barely double figures the other one ) with one study no longer available.The 4th was 500 odd professional female athletes of varying levels (95 highly elite, 190 elite, and 314 sub-elite with 298 age-matched female controls) across a number of disciplines. The testosterone levels of the Elite athletes in the explosive events were all much much higher than those of the sub elite and control group. Probably worth noting that 2 out of the 3 available papers were old (10-20 years), the exception being the 4th one, that was published in 2020.

 

[Hotwired]

Have to watch later. Video won't play on work device.
Is this just one bloke's opinion, or an authoritative examination of the wider scene with actual proof?

It's a professional bodybuilder going into women using Anavar using another youtube video of a younger FBB as a basis.

He's on HRT himself last I checked, destroyed his balls (ability to produce testosterone) with steroids while competing as a professional bodybuilder for decades.

Every video he informs visitors to not listen to him, don't take any of the mentioned drugs, don't break the law and have a doctor monitor your blood if you ignore him. PED's are very far from ok to talk about because they're very far from acceptable. The actual sport organisers have nothing to do with it. Individuals have nothing to gain from exposing their PED use except in rare social media circumstances.

 

[ttaskmaster]

I struggle with that statement unless it is in a very narrow sense. The fastest 15 year old 100m sprinting boy in the US would generally run a time suitable to qualify for to the Womens Olympics final. By college age the top 500 US boys will outperform the fastest female 100m sprinter in the World. Male puberty confers males an undeniable athletic advantage over females.

The testosterone that makes males male does alter their bodies to be higher performing than their female equivalents, yes... but between two given individuals generally considered to be equal, does the one with the higher testosterone levels consistently outperform the one with lower levels?

Caster is Karyotype 46XY SRY+

There are several listings for 46XY SRY+, two of which are classified as Female.
Has her Karyotype been confirmed aalong with her actual disorder?

The testosterone levels of the Elite athletes in the explosive events were all much much higher than those of the sub elite and control group.

But of those Higher Elites, did those with the higher testosterone levels always outperform other Elites with lower levels?
Of those Elites - Same question.
Of those Sub-Elites - Same question.
Mister Cotton's Parrot.... Same question.

There's a bit of bait and switch going on in that article... for a start:

Administered testosterone supposedly does provide a notable short-term boost, hence it being banned as doping, whereas having naturally high testosterone is what they're saying is debatable as to whether or not it provides a measurable advantage. Leaving aside various medical conditions that feature excess testosterone as a symptom, which generally does not appear to provide athletic advantage anyway (as with the likes of PCOS), and the simple separation of male from female due to testosterone defining their development, what conclusive proof is there that excess testosterone is a performance enhancer rather than just another symptom of something?

Caster is a man, biologically so they appear to have already conceded that it is a competitive advantage... that you can muddle things with female athletes because of the presence of multiple factors isn't necessarily relevant for her.

She's genetically male, but I've yet to hear any confirmation as to how her exact biology works, and whether it actually does confer an advantage. It may have been adjudicated as such by a panel of sports rules officials, but the scientists seem to disagree. All we know is that whatever medication she was on to reduce her T-level made her very sick, but given what PCOS sufferers go through when taking Metformin, that's not surprising and isn't a solution to enable competition.
The fact that most people are still talking about "her" being a man, and how "she" should compete in male categories suggests a lot more are not yet sufficiently convinced.

It's a professional bodybuilder going into women using Anavar using another youtube video of a younger FBB as a basis.
He's on HRT himself last I checked, destroyed his balls (ability to produce testosterone) with steroids while competing as a professional bodybuilder for decades.

But is there any data on how many FBBs are taking this stuff?

 

[sidimmu]

this all seems to confusing, just ban the person from competing in womens categories, too many variables and clearly has a natural advantage over other females.

 

[ttaskmaster]

this all seems to confusing, just ban the person from competing in womens categories, too many variables and clearly has a natural advantage over other females.

It's not that simple:

"What’s strange is that women with androgen receptor mutations are extremely overrepresented among elite athletes, even though those with severe cases can’t possibly be getting the benefit of their natural testosterone without receptors to carry out those effects. Holt [Richard Holt, a professor of endocrinology at the University of Southampton] points out some of these women have even had their testes removed, bringing their testosterone levels to below female levels, and yet they’re still able to compete internationally"
From article linked above.

You'd basically be telling a lot of women, who appear female and have lived their whole lives as females, and in some cases actually are genetically female, that their careers as elite athletes for which they've worked so hard are now over, unless they effectively have themselves a sex change.

This goes back to my earlier assertion from another thread about trans-athletes - If the individual is basically female as far as the average person would say, and their performance results from a natural condition, then there should be no reason why they cannot compete. The issue is when some stonking bloke puts on a dress and climbs into the ring, to punch seven shades of **** out of a woman.

 

[Longbow]

I think this person's situation is different to the trans debate as s/he is intersex.

Something I heard recently and looked in to it Caster has fathered children.

The wife Caster is with gave birth twice.

Intersex people are unique as they are both biological male and female.

Nope. Sex is binary, you're either geared to produce large gametes (female) or small gametes (male). You can't be both male and female. Intersex isn't really a thing, at least if you're thinking it makes someone both sexes, or neither. You can be male or female, with some abnormalities, but you're still either male or female.

 

[sidimmu]

"What’s strange is that women with androgen receptor mutations are extremely overrepresented among elite athletes, even though those with severe cases can’t possibly be getting the benefit of their natural testosterone without receptors to carry out those effects. Holt [Richard Holt, a professor of endocrinology at the University of Southampton] points out some of these women have even had their testes removed, bringing their testosterone levels to below female levels, and yet they’re still able to compete internationally"
From article linked above.

whats interesting is they use the word women immediately and nothing else.

This goes back to my earlier assertion from another thread about trans-athletes - If the individual is basically female as far as the average person would say, and their performance results from a natural condition, then there should be no reason why they cannot compete. The issue is when some stonking bloke puts on a dress and climbs into the ring, to punch seven shades of **** out of a woman.

as a combat sports fan, that's had many arguments with friends over the likes of this topic and trans fighters, I wholeheartedly agree.
Born as a male, you have no rights to compete as a female, regardless of what you do to yourself.

 

[Jokester]

Caster is a Male with a particular Congenital Disorder of Sexual Development that only affects males and has fathered two children (via Artificial Insemination) with his wife.

He's just a cheat and should be banned from competing.

Indeed - but, if elite level athletics allow males, "un-restricted" to compete in women's athletics, on the basis they are recognised as legally women it opens the door to anyone else to compete on the basis of gender identity.

Though I do agree in part as regards ttaskmaster comments, actual women are impacted by the aribitary limits on testosterone that were originally put in place.

 

[GGizmo]

That last line isn't correct. Intersex people are overall one or the other but haven't developed fully for a number of reasons. This graphic goes into detail: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPVe3MPWYAIzGmx?format=png

Caster is Karyotype 46XY SRY+

That is very indepth knowledge.

I have known an intersex person. They aren't like a regular person of the observed gender, and some get misgendered at birth.

I think because these situations are so rare to encounter Caster should either run as a male or not at all.

Unless sports are going to open gender variable groups then each person intersex or transitioning is going to be an individual case.

 

[ttaskmaster]

whats interesting is they use the word women immediately and nothing else.

I believe because in pretty much all the cases being questioned, the athletes appear as female to most observers.

as a combat sports fan, that's had many arguments with friends over the likes of this topic and trans fighters, I wholeheartedly agree.
Born as a male, you have no rights to compete as a female, regardless of what you do to yourself.

The question is whether those who are genetically male but appear female without doing anything to themselves have any unfair advantage.

Indeed - but, if elite level athletics allow males, "un-restricted" to compete in women's athletics, on the basis they are recognised as legally women it opens the door to anyone else to compete on the basis of gender identity.

What about those who have been medically recognised as women?
Trans-athletes generally have physical signs that they're male and/or have purposely done something to be categorised as women, whereas most intersex ones require examination of genetic coding and have done nothing special to attain this other than being born.

 

[sidimmu]

I believe because in pretty much all the cases being questioned, the athletes appear as female to most observers.
The question is whether those who are genetically male but appear female without doing anything to themselves have any unfair advantage.
What about those who have been medically recognised as women?
Trans-athletes generally have physical signs that they're male and/or have purposely done something to be categorised as women, whereas most intersex ones require examination of genetic coding and have done nothing special to attain this other than being born.

Completely agree on the trans side of things, they stick out massively and its easy to see the advantage they carry from previously going through puberty and growing as a man.
Agreed intersex is a very tricky situation at this point. Would you find it fair to put those intersex within a Trans or other based category as its too difficult and outside the general realms of male/female?

 

[Jokester]

What about those who have been medically recognised as women?
Trans-athletes generally have physical signs that they're male and/or have purposely done something to be categorised as women, whereas most intersex ones require examination of genetic coding and have done nothing special to attain this other than being born.

If someone is a woman then they should be allowed to compete in women's sport. As far as I'm aware, the original court case involved full medical checks of Caster that established Caster was male, both chromosonally and as regards organs that were present.

 

[dowie]

If someone is a woman then they should be allowed to compete in women's sport. As far as I'm aware, the original court case involved full medical checks of Caster that established Caster was male, both chromosonally and as regards organs that were present.

He's just trying some semantic argument here, by "medically recognised as women" he's presumably trying to include Caster as a "woman" who has been "medically recognised" as such in so far as she was (to use gender ideology lingo) "assigned female at birth" by a doctor.

It's got no bearing on the reality that she's a biological male with the advantages that come with being a biological male, it's just an attempt at obfuscation because there isn't really any justification to support a pro-Caster argument.

Likewise, this is the obvious problems terms like "cis", grifters can accurately (according to gender ideology) state things like this:

Technically that is correct by definition as trans people are defined as people who have transitioned from their "gender assigned at birth" and Caster is in trans lingo "AFAB" or "assigned female at birth" and because she still identifies as female today she is therefore "cis".

So that term is not much use here unless you want to obfuscate... a more accurate term would be "biological male" but that's seen in some circles as bigoted and triggering etc..

Likewise, there is a Chinese youtuber who was "AMAB" or "assigned male at birth" for cultural reasons to please grandparents (boys are preferred in China) in reality she's a biological female and today identifies as female... but according to trans ideology she's "trans" because she differs from the official gender assignment at birth. The ideology isn't based on reality but just technicalities relating to assigned and chosen identity.