Chinese Grand Prix 2014, Shanghai - Race 4/19

I really hope Lewis brings the WDC trophy home this year, it would be great to see him win a second championship.



So what if he's a good driver? They're all good drivers or they wouldn't be in F1. I don't think he has the drive (no pun intended) anger and hunger, that edginess, to ever win another race let alone a WDC. He had his glory in 2009, it's over for him now. I really like Jenson, but the writing's on the wall imo.

(Oooh, controversial :p)

*Cough* Maldonardo *cough* :p
 
So what if he's a good driver? They're all good drivers or they wouldn't be in F1.

Jenson's good by the standards of F1. But that's not really my point: why would McLaren replace Jenson with any of the other drivers they could get? They're not going to get someone better.

By my money next season is Jenson's last faint hope: if Honda can deliver a power unit to be proud of then, maybe, McLaren stand a chance of being the best car on the grid and then Jenson just needs to be better than his team mate. But, basically, his goose is cooked. He's old for a driver now.
 
Button certainly drove a great race in difficult conditions but I think much of the sheer scale of his performance came down to a car that was simply better than anyone else's in those conditions. Had Lewis shown a little more caution that day he would have walked away from Button and we'd be talking about how Lewis destroyed the field in Canada instead.

I actually think that race was one of the rare moments Button could show his one unique talent - driving to the limit on a drying track.

In wet conditions (anything requiring inters) he's not the best by a long way, and in the dry just can't extract that last few percent from the car.

On this unusual condition of track still a bit wet but everyone is on slicks, feeling like they're driving on ice - it works for him.
 
Jenson's good by the standards of F1. But that's not really my point: why would McLaren replace Jenson with any of the other drivers they could get? They're not going to get someone better.

By my money next season is Jenson's last faint hope: if Honda can deliver a power unit to be proud of then, maybe, McLaren stand a chance of being the best car on the grid and then Jenson just needs to be better than his team mate. But, basically, his goose is cooked. He's old for a driver now.

Mclaren need Button at the moment as a benchmark - unless they attract hamilton, vettel or alonso who bring their own benchmark. Any new driver they bring in now has to beat Button. Simple as that. Matching him or being close is not enough, they need someone to out qualify and out race him.

That's why perez went and I'm sure there is expectation that magnussen would beat him this year. We'll see how long they give him if he doesn't at least match Buttons performance (mistakes will be expected, but he has to show speed this year imo).

I think after all his years in F1 Button is the closest thing you could call a 'safe pair of hands' at the moment.
 
You do know Perez in a new car was poor in the first few races then outqualified button from then on, it was 10 to 9 for the season with the first 4 all going to Button who was far more familiar with the car, controls and setup of the car. The last 9 races was 6 to 3 in favour of Perez in qualifying. he's a younger driver was no where near the experience and over the course of the season showed far far more growth and improvement than Button did.

Perez certainly made some big mistakes but he also had quite a bit of bad luck, few blown tires in race and practice which hurt his results significantly.

In reality, while it's not the case for all drivers, for some changing to a new team will be very stressful, intimidating and they'll take a while to establish themselves. I think it was madness to ditch Perez after a single season particularly as he finished the season very well and was consistently outqualifying Button after a slow start to the season.

Will be interesting next year to see what Honda can do, they could knock it out of the park but you presume the year of experience the other engine makers have in where best to harvest, the most efficient usage of the power application and simple things like where they can shave some weight off the engine or improve reliability will make it exceptionally hard for Honda to be truly competitive next year.

Likewise most cars will be significantly refined aero/packaging wise while Mclaren will to a certain degree have to start a bit from scratch to work with the new engine and simply the teams lack of competitiveness in the past two years comes from development, I don't think getting rid of Whitmarsh will have an instant dramatic improvement in those area's. A year or two of bringing in the right people before we see large changes is much more likely. We'll probably see Mclaren agree to let the one guy out of his contract and go back to Red Bull if Red Bull allow the other guy to join Mclaren now without the gardening leave. Pretty funny though as it sounds like the first guy to join Mclaren didn't like working with the other guy and was the reason he left. Then Mclaren get him too and the first guy wants out of the deal :p

The main reason to get rid of Button is to try anyone new but also have a seat available. If the Honda engine is great then a top driver would happily jump into the fastest car and it's easier to get rid of either of a couple of rookies than Button.


Haas could go for Button and Button could be happy to go with Haas. To get quick support one way is to bring in a well liked/supported driver. Getting Button on board would get people waiving your car's flags at every race instantly, they guys who follow drivers rather than teams(which is loads if not most people). Button can't get a top drive as it stands, and Haas would probably be willing to pay big money or allow him freedom to go after big sponsorship deals like most teams other than Mclaren want. IE there is loads of money in it for button and support for Haas.

The current smaller teams don't have the money to make Button want to leave Mclaren, and the current top teams frankly want better drivers than him and all have better drivers currently.
 
Comedians.

Why on Earth would Jenson be axed when he beat his team mate in the last two Grand Prix?

On top of that...

"Anything is possible, but Jenson is doing a great job," said Dennis. "He is quick and he is dedicated so there is no reason not to stay with Jenson from any perspective. But we still have a whole season to go."

A quote by the big man himself...

And on top of that Button has ties with Japan - Japanese Girlfriend, has driven for Honda before. FWIW Button may as well be Japanese to most of Japan!

If anyone is given the boot for let's say, someone like Stoffel, then so far this season it'd be Kevin.


Also, makes me laugh at how people don't say anything about Kimi Raikonnen - he's about the same age as Jenson, if not exactly the same age? Yet no one is saying this will be his last season...

Despite Alonso getting 3rd today and Kimi just scraping into the points - and being utterly battered and beat hand over fist once again by Alonso...

Kimi Raikonnen, it must surely be his last year then! Or maybe he's just utterly overrated??

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Any other team would take JB, he is fast, he is experienced and he can get the best out of a poor car. He's not as quick as some other drivers over a single lap but over the race distance he uses his head and that's what brings him results...
 
Any other team would take JB, he is fast, he is experienced and he can get the best out of a poor car. He's not as quick as some other drivers over a single lap but over the race distance he uses his head and that's what brings him results...

I wouldn't say Button can get the best out of a poor car and I'm a Button FanBoi !
 
I'd call Button a steady-Eddie.

Nothing special, but he'll get the car home in the points if the balance is ok ;)

Personally if Renault are allowed to re-work the engine next year then I can't see past a RBR domination. They're already the 2nd best team in race trim, and it's only for their lack of horse power that they aren't challenging for wins.

Honda have the ability to take the best principles of the merc and Renault engine and make a "best" version, although I don't trust McLaren's aero to outshine that of RBR. Sadly I think this season may be a "one hit wonder" for Mercedes, but I hope I'm wrong.
 
I can see it now...Hamilton 49 points ahead on the last race and his car gives up on him, Rosberg wins and takes the title by virtue of double points.....imagine the ****storm!

I think what you mean is: Hamilton is ahead by 49 points, leading the race by a comfortable margin from Rosberg, and then Pastor Maldonardo emerges from the pit-lane. *cue Jaws music*
 
Been a super busy week for me and worked all of the bank holiday weekend, so only caught some of the race.

Session times now added to the OP.
 
I'd call Button a steady-Eddie.

Nothing special, but he'll get the car home in the points if the balance is ok ;)

Personally if Renault are allowed to re-work the engine next year then I can't see past a RBR domination. They're already the 2nd best team in race trim, and it's only for their lack of horse power that they aren't challenging for wins.

Honda have the ability to take the best principles of the merc and Renault engine and make a "best" version, although I don't trust McLaren's aero to outshine that of RBR. Sadly I think this season may be a "one hit wonder" for Mercedes, but I hope I'm wrong.

Eh, the engine isn't only about the pure power, how and when to use the harvested power is exceptionally important as is the brake by wire system and how well a team can harvest the energy. This is where Merc are dominating particularly the other Merc teams, but really every one. Their harvesting system, software, brake by wire, engine in general are all best on the grid and it's arguable that Merc have the best aero as well.

Merc aren't a one season wonder, they've improved because they improved the team building the car, this years car is no fluke but the result of a fundamentally strong team they've put together and probably the best driver on the grid to go with it.

Merc can improve their engine further next year also, ultimately if Renault "fix" the engine by copying the Merc design it will be a new design next year for the large part, while Merc will refine and improve it so it will still likely be better. On top of that Renault/RBR have failed to get on top of Kers for years and still don't seem at their best, showing a few failures in their kers/ers systems at various points already(not sure about in race yet but in practice/qualifying it's failed to varying degrees).

Newey himself has said they are losing a second down the straights in a race to Merc, but they are much more than a second down a lap. There is more than pure engine power at play in that merc, it's an excellent car in every aspect.

Also we've got the situation where if Renault make significant changes so the packaging has to change significantly, even if it's for the better, it means doing many things from new next year for Red Bull where again Merc will be refining and improving an already excellent design. Red Bull are starting from much further back.

Ferrari have a system like Merc's on the car don't forget, the split turbo design with the further forward intercooler, they didn't make the gap as extreme as they felt they couldn't handle the vibration that such a large gap would create. So it's not easy to do, Merc did it, doesn't mean Renault can, Ferrari tried it and decided it was too difficult and went smaller and less effective.

When you have a lead into new regulations, if other people copy a part they are still copying something and starting new, where the team with said part are refining and improving it. It's still an advantage. Many teams copied what RBR did but while they added a new part RBR refined the existing part and went better still.

That doesn't mean Merc will dominate next year, or all of this year, but the Merc team we see today isn't the same team that built the last car or was in place for the majority of the past 4 years, it's drastically improved. This car isn't one fluke idea like the double diffuser on the brawn. EVERYTHING on the car is fantastic, not one piece, and they are already bringing the biggest improvements(front nose) and doing the things that Red Bull have been known for. Taking the engine and making something unexpected, new and incredibly successful. Taking the nose regulations and finding a way to basically use the old better nose design in the new rules. They are doing everything that has made Red Bull so successful recently.

Little points to obvious RBR domination next year, though it's possible, and literally nothing points to Merc as a one season wonder. Last years dramatic improvement in the car was also down to the new improved Merc team, it was just smaller changes on a fundamentally problematic car(it was completely worthless to spend money on a complete redesign last year.. look at Mclaren, crap last year and the worst Merc team this year, because they spent too long on last year's car and not enough on this years car).

Two years being the most improved team on the grid each year both directly points to not a one off, and the lack of the one lucky killer feature part of the car does the same. Anyone can find a massive loophole and create one feature that others don't. But Merc simply got every last thing on the car bang on the money, every new and good idea(new nose, engine, brakes, software, kers, aero) right. Red Bull will close but I think unless Honda knock it right out of the park at the first attempt that Merc will be very very strong next year also.
 
Sometimes while I'm reading drunkenmaster posts I have to stop to try and remember what the conversation is about. Occasionally I get halfway through and forget which forum I'm in. I swear on the odd occasion I've had to go and check what day of the week it is to make sure I haven't missed work, or lost a week, or been declared missing.
 
Does the ferrari engine actually split the turbo to the extent that Mercedes does, putting the turbine to one side of the engine block and the compressor to the other side, or have they just moved the turbine and compressor away from each other a bit? I was under the impression that part of the masterstroke of the Mercedes engine was the fact that the hottest part of the turbo was in front of the engine block, meaning that the gearbox can be moved right next to the engine without there being any overheating problems (obviously there are many other benefits with this, but I don't need to list them here). If ferrari have simply moved the turbine and compressor apart a bit while keeping both parts behind the engine then, while they may technically have a split turbo, it wont be anywhere near as effective as the Mercedes one.
 
So what if he's a good driver? They're all good drivers or they wouldn't be in F1. I don't think he has the drive (no pun intended) anger and hunger, that edginess, to ever win another race let alone a WDC. He had his glory in 2009, it's over for him now. I really like Jenson, but the writing's on the wall imo.

(Oooh, controversial :p)

Seeing as he won races in the last competitive car McLaren produced, Im not entirely sure where you get the above from

JB is still a much better driver than 3/4 of the grid, people just dont want to give him the credit he deserves

Does the ferrari engine actually split the turbo to the extent that Mercedes does, putting the turbine to one side of the engine block and the compressor to the other side, or have they just moved the turbine and compressor away from each other a bit? I was under the impression that part of the masterstroke of the Mercedes engine was the fact that the hottest part of the turbo was in front of the engine block, meaning that the gearbox can be moved right next to the engine without there being any overheating problems (obviously there are many other benefits with this, but I don't need to list them here). If ferrari have simply moved the turbine and compressor apart a bit while keeping both parts behind the engine then, while they may technically have a split turbo, it wont be anywhere near as effective as the Mercedes one.


No-one as yet have done it to the same extent as Mercedes. The interesting thing will be whether Honda are capable of doing it before coming in next season (as its fundamentally a layout change I wonder how much extra dynamo testing it will require), also being Merc's partner, I wonder how long ago McLaren knew about the layout (obviously before the 1st 2014 test, but I just cant see why Honda couldnt implement this easily in the time they have before next season - if they didnt already have the same idea)
 
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JB is still a much better driver than 3/4 of the grid, people just dont want to give him the credit he deserves

3/4s? I'm not sure Button is better than 3/4s of the drivers on the grid, let alone much better than. Better than 3/4s would put him top six, and I don't think he's that. Solidly in the top ten drivers, yeah, I'll give him that - but top six? Nah.
 
Does the ferrari engine actually split the turbo to the extent that Mercedes does, putting the turbine to one side of the engine block and the compressor to the other side, or have they just moved the turbine and compressor away from each other a bit? I was under the impression that part of the masterstroke of the Mercedes engine was the fact that the hottest part of the turbo was in front of the engine block, meaning that the gearbox can be moved right next to the engine without there being any overheating problems (obviously there are many other benefits with this, but I don't need to list them here). If ferrari have simply moved the turbine and compressor apart a bit while keeping both parts behind the engine then, while they may technically have a split turbo, it wont be anywhere near as effective as the Mercedes one.

Ferrari split it to get the intercooler further forward but they didn't create as big a distance as Merc, not because they didn't want to be technically they decided that the vibration on the shaft connecting the two pieces would be too large so they didn't get the intercooler as far forwards as Merc. If they decided that early on without actually trying it or if they attempted that design and actually couldn't make it work and had to change it I don't know.

The point being it wasn't exactly an unknown or unique idea. Wanting to achieve something doesn't mean you can. Ferrari had the same idea Merc had but simply couldn't implement it.

In the same way Renault knowing about the idea doesn't mean they can implement it, or if they can that they can do it as well. But it's not the only reason the Merc is ahead. That was my point, it's not a case of if Renault crack it their car is light years ahead of Merc.

the idea that Renault getting a split turbo next year will instantly shoot them into a dominant position is to completely ignore how crucial other parts of the car is. It's also painfully, painfully clear from comparing the Merc to you know, the other mercedes using cars, they are light years ahead in every aspect of their car. Red bull might be closer, even possibly ahead in aero, but there is more to the car than aero and a split turbo.

For me till RBR get a brilliant ers implementation, as well as a more powerful engine, then they won't even match Merc. If they have an aero advantage at that stage they might win but I still don't think dominant.

AFAIK the split turbo is mostly an efficiency improvement, which also allows an aero advantage. But don't forget that the RBR already has a crazy tight packaging, so they have less to gain from that. Efficiency will help them but it won't fix fundamental lack of engine power. I would expect an improvement from split turbo, but not much of one. There are still multiple area's in which the Merc works well to a common goal of excellent efficiency and power production.

We're talking about Renault needing to get better ers systems, better power delivery(better top speed) as well as better efficiency all in one engine update. I expect they can improve in all areas, but so can Merc. I can't remotely see them making an engine to trash Merc's over one season. Particularly when they've had to spend so much time fixing and improving this years engine while Merc are likely dedicating their time to working on next year's mostly, and from very early in the year.
 
3/4s? I'm not sure Button is better than 3/4s of the drivers on the grid, let alone much better than. Better than 3/4s would put him top six, and I don't think he's that. Solidly in the top ten drivers, yeah, I'll give him that - but top six? Nah.

He was equal or better than LH in the same car when Lewis was entrenched at McLaren for all three years they were together.

The only two people who are clearly better than him are Alonso and Vettel

There certainly arent three more people on the grid currently who have proved anything like capable of being good enough over a full season for a WDC (and JB did it with the team being held back by absolutely no development)

edit - Kimi still has to prove he has the focus to put a full season together (while being trounced by Alonso)
 
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People rate drivers very differently, using different factors and even viewing results and interpreting them differently... If you asked everyone to list the current drivers in order of where they though they were at there would be a fair few similarities but just as many differences.

The biggest changing factors it seems is favouritism and on these forums there are some fans who cannot possibly admit their favourite driver had a bad race or made a mistake but more so because it seems people aren't keen on changing their mind very often or admitting they were wrong (or they just like arguing for the sake of it or winding up others).
 
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