Cleopatra

[rp2000]

Imagine if they made Gandhi today with Ben Kingsley. Would the internet explode?


rp2000

 

[Nitefly]

I think the mental gymnastics you have gone through to try and justify one-way race swapping only goes to show how untenable your position is.

I wouldn’t go so far as saying it requires ‘mental gymnastics’ to understand it, but there are nuances to the topic. If a person doesn’t appreciate nuances, then their viewpoint will likewise lack nuance.

But there is also comprehension. If you think I’m trying to “justify one-way race swapping”, I would refer you to my following posts - with highlighting for emphasis:

My logic is wholly blind to race and the identity of the underrepresented in the specific context in which it may apply (black, white, whatever) is entirely incidental.

If white people were historically underrepresented in leading roles in Western cinema, then I would likewise say that white people were more entitled (to a limited degree) to be more entitled to object to white historical figures being ‘race swapped’.

I haven’t suggested that people should be ‘deliberately race swapped’ for any reason.

Instead, I have said (****ing hell how many times to I need to type this): “under represented persons in leading roles are (to a degree) more entitled to be protective of their existing representation.”

The best actor or actress should get the role. They are acting. I am completely unbothered by race swapping conceptually and I think there is no reason to limit casting to a particular race. This goes all ways and extends beyond race.

There are two collateral points :

- It is understandably more sensitive to ‘race swap’ a character whose race is of critical importance to their story. On that basis, it is entirely logical and reasonable that people will be more sensitive to ‘race swapping’ historical figures like, for example, Martin Luther King (a black man) or Earn Warren (a white man), then ‘race swapping’ a character whose race is entirely incidental to their story and circumstances.

- The point which seems to have been misunderstood: Western cinema exists as a catalogue and there is a very real context that, to date, certain groups have been underrepresented in leading roles in Western cinema <- this is a reality and it would be obtuse to ignore it.

^^^ This does not ‘entitle’ ‘race swapping’ and I have not suggested as such.

If you are reading those posts and still think I am justifying “one-way race swapping” (which I am clearly not advocating for) then, please, focus when you re-read these passages.

If you do that and still think I am trying to justify “one-way race swapping” then either your reading comprehension is very poor, or you are deliberately avoiding engaging with what I have actually said.

 

[pc-guy]

Like I said, her skin tone is pretty similar to some Persians.

I dont think anyone will confuse her as Persian. She s fairly easy to locate her ethnicity certainly part of her ethnicity.

 

[Scam]

Expert? No I just read, you should try it occasionally. All you have to do is click the odd link on your font of all knowledge, Wikipedia.

Sure sure If one thing's for sure - if there's an anti-woke bandwagon to get on - all of a sudden there's a lot of experts about various esoteric aspects of ethnicity, history etc. lol.

The jury isnt out at all, the 'conversation' is just being poisoned by folks with an agenda.

Well seen as she died over 2000 years ago and we haven't found a single photograph ( ) of her yet, I think it's fair to say no one can be sure what shade of white, brown, light brown, dark, black, olive her skin was. She might have spent a long time out in the sun, have you taken that into account? The only people poisoning anything are the muppets lapping up the right-wing, anti-woke brigade, Fox news diatribes and ****ing all over any discussion about TV or movies in this here forum.

Imagine if they made Gandhi today with Ben Kingsley. Would the internet explode?

I'll raise you; imagine if they cast someone with mixed-race African heritage

I dont think anyone will confuse her as Persian. She s fairly easy to locate her ethnicity certainly part of her ethnicity.

So what is her ethnicity?

 

[C Kent]

I think it's fair to say no one can be sure what shade of white, brown, light brown, dark, black, olive her skin was. She might have spent a long time out in the sun, have you taken that into account?

Sure if you ignore all the evidence that's out there as previously stated in the thread then she can be whatever someone wants. hell, I once saw a film that said all the Egyptian gods were a race of aliens, that got more basis in reality than the muppets that claim she was black

 

[Tony Edwards]

Imagine if they made Gandhi today with Ben Kingsley. Would the internet explode?


rp2000

The internet still might but it would be fairly quiet here.

 

[C Kent]

The same Ben Kingsley whose father is Indian?

 

[MissChief]

The same Ben Kingsley whose father is Indian?

I was going to say, I thought he was half Indian.

 

[rp2000]

I know of his heritage, I meant more the point that he is a clearly white actor playing a historical role that was definitely originally meant for someone a few shades darker than him! I was quite young but I don't remember a big song and dance about it at the time.


rp2000

 

[B&W]

It's funny, because Adele James is actually mixed-race herself. Looks like she has a white mother who is Welsh of all things. So not all that different from a mixed-race Cleopatra really, is it? People talking about Adele James like she grew up in darkest Africa in a mud hut, lol try South West London Like I said, her skin tone is pretty similar to some Persians.

I wonder, were you an expert in the Seleucid's and Ptolemaic's before that Scottish Youtuber posted his video 'review'? Funny how there's lots of experts now that this 'controversy' has cropped up.

Seen as the jury will forever be out about Cleopatra's "colour" then it seems a bit of a stretch to be saying anything with the utmost certainty, so yes I agree. Although isn't Egypt technically part of the African continent so colour aside, you're not wrong to call her an African Queen...

Just because she's mixed race doesn't make her appearance similar to Egyptians or other middle eastern people.

She's taken on the features/colour of her African side of her heritage.

Cleopatra was clearly of greek heritage it's not even up for debate.

And even if she was tanned she wouldn't look like this Adele James, heck I could pull off a better Egyptian look.

 

[Kenai]

I know of his heritage, I meant more the point that he is a clearly white actor playing a historical role that was definitely originally meant for someone a few shades darker than him! I was quite young but I don't remember a big song and dance about it at the time.


rp2000

There has been some retrospective "that's problematic" type commentary in particular corners of the internet, just as there is for things like Friends when a new generation started watching, though I think it tends to be more about the skin darkening makeup than his actual heritage

 

[pc-guy]

So what is her ethnicity?

lets use the british government ethnicity group as example

List of ethnic groups

Read about the 18 ethnic groups recommended for use by government when they ask for someone’s ethnicity in England and Wales.

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk

she would be Black African or White and Black African.

you would not say she is Arabic or Any Other Ethnicity Group

 

[pc-guy]

Although isn't Egypt technically part of the African continent so colour aside, you're not wrong to call her an African Queen...

Egypt and Ancient to Antiquity period, it has always been straddling Asia and Africa continent. Egypt in its current geo-location as well as ancient times would have been an African soveringty and Pharos were African dynastic empires.

there is nothing wrong in calling Cleopatra as African Queen. one needs to stop there and bringing Race and colour into the equation is just wrong. the series implies the Ptolemaic dynasty ruled over Egypt which was an African country, therefore Cleopatra its last ruler was a BLACK woman with 0 consideration of facts. that is wrong and wrong and wrong always.

its like saying everyone coming from UK is white...and Rishi Sunak is a portrait in photos and media as being a Caucasian male cos he s the PM of a western country...

the series strongly and almost 100% pursue the falsehood that AFRICAN = BLACK.

I wouldnt be very pleased as a modern day Egyptian to be classed under those terms, especially considering the stigma comes with being "BLACK" as well as the shear ignorance of it all. the diaspora is wide ranging not a single colour or race.

i suppose the same producer wouldnt like it if Obama documentary was portrayed by Damien Lewis as Obama, and Michelle Obama is portrayed by Michelle Yeoh. technically, under current day American society that is a possibility but not histroically accurate...what is the series about, a documentary or a fanatasy? if it is not meant to be historically accurate - then why all these self-proclaimed historians interviews. if they are trying to respect the history accounts then why try to rewrite the history on the account of her race??

 

[gingergundog]

I do understand this. I made a comment (above) that I initially found the representation in Bridgerton distracting and that was merely a straight up drama.

After some contemplation, I realised that all the actors were acting and I decided that my ability to suspend disbelief over an actor’s acting should not materially impacted by the colour of the skin. Instead, I would rather focus on the calibre of their acting.

One I adopted that approach, it was far less distracting - to the point of being a non-issue - and I could enjoy the show (Bridgerton).

You can’t help how you feel, but perhaps give this some contemplation the next time something like that bothers you.

I get where you are coming from regarding something like Bridgerton, fictional characters I'm not bothered. When its historical it just seems unnecessary.

I've always imagined Cleopatra as being olive skinned, I guess similar to a greek due to where she originated from, nobody really knows what she looked like though. I was more irritated by the Anne Boleyn series, just seemed totally ridiculous, I mean was she going to have a mixed race baby called Elizabeth 1st.

 

[SPG]

Danny Dyer as Malcom X then (I shall get my coat)

 

[pc-guy]

Watching Bridgerton was jarring. But one can appreciate that it is a period drama, not an historic recount or documentary.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Some of you guys are going to lose your **** over this.

Eddie Murphy lined up to be Inspector Clouseau in Pink Panther reboot

The actor is set to reprise the role originally made famous by Peter Sellers in a ‘live action/CG hybrid’ version directed by Sonic the Hedgehog’s Jeff Fowler

www.theguardian.com

Eddie Murphy is in talks to take the role of The Pink Panther’s Inspector Clouseau, a comic figure made immensely popular by Peter Sellers in the 1960s and 70s.

 

[Scam]

Just because she's mixed race doesn't make her appearance similar to Egyptians or other middle eastern people.

On the contrary, as far as skin tone goes - her mixed heritage gives her a lighter "brown" tone which can look very similar to someone from the middle east

she would be Black African or White and Black African.

Have you asked her? Where is her father from?

therefore Cleopatra its last ruler was a BLACK woman with 0 consideration of facts

Are they actually saying Cleopatra was black? Because the way I read it; a Persian director has cast a British mixed race, light-brown-skinned actress with a Welsh mother... ?

I was more irritated by the Anne Boleyn series, just seemed totally ridiculous,

I wondered why there was little outcry about Anne Boleyn at the time (June '21) but then I noticed when C Kent joined

 

[Uther]

Some of you guys are going to lose your **** over this.

Only because Eddie Murphy is a **** actor.

 

[pc-guy]

Are they actually saying Cleopatra was black? Because the way I read it; a Persian director has cast a British mixed race, light-brown-skinned actress with a Welsh mother... ?

Did you watch the interviews and the claims the program made?

They CLAIMED in the series that Cleopatra is "an African Queen and she was BLACK" in those words.

dont give a crap what the actress is or not. but the programme used her to portray its agenda.

“We don’t often get to see or hear stories about Black queens, and that was really important for me, as well as for my daughter, and just for my community to be able to know those stories because there are tons of them,” Pinkett Smith said.

so lets not dance around the issue that someone is trying to meld history to suit their own agenda and shove it down the throat of the masses and then come out with a Race Red Card for whoever calls the BS on this crap.

In a guest column for Variety, the show’s director, Tina Gharavi, said her research on the Hellenistic-era queen — who she writes “was eight generations away” from her Ptolemaic ancestors — led her to realize “what a political act it would be to see Cleopatra portrayed by a Black actress.”

The director noted that portrayals of Cleopatra have flouted the historical record. “The HBO series ‘Rome’ portrayed one of the most intelligent, sophisticated and powerful women in the world as a sleazy, dissipated drug addict, yet Egypt didn’t seem to mind,” Gharavi wrote. “Where was the outrage then? But portraying her as Black? Well.”

This last bit is a bit funny. I am not sure what she was trying to prove that her flouting of historical truth is lesser than others…it’s this childish logic that I was as naughty as the other kid so I am ok…what a 6 year old…