Cleopatra

[GlitterBalls]

 

[Darujhistan]

Ok for one and not for the other seems dangerously close to racism to me

That's exactly what it is. No-one wants to say that though.

 

[robfosters]

Wait until the mods see this piece of art

 

[pc-guy]

maybe Cleopatra was acutally a man and gay! We knew romans practiced male relationships quite fondly - maybe her children were all adopted.

why not make a documentary about that!

Black gay couples Leo and Ceasar and then Leo and Mark....and then an all out gay spat with Octavian/Emperor Augustus

 

[Darujhistan]

I did not say this. I said that the two examples were not broadly comparable in respect of how sensitive they should be considered.

All else being the same and ‘in a vacuum’, race swapping a character whose race is fundamentally important to their character is going to be more sensitive than race swapping a character whose race isn’t fundamentally important to their character. This goes both, and indeed all, ways.



This is a ‘straw man’ statement: it wouldn’t be using ‘my logic’ at all. Although, as difficult / challenging as it may be, it is not necessarily impossible to make an intelligent film along these lines, although no doubt it would be controversial to some.



You have (again) literally misquoted me.

I said:

“As there has been a historical lack of representation of ethnic minorities in leading roles in Western cinema, I can see it being much more sensitive in that context to ‘race swap’ from ‘black to white’ than from ‘white to black’ in respect of historical figures. So, to a limited degree, under represented minorities are more entitled to protect their own representation on screen.”

The relevance is not the race, but that a group of persons are ‘under represented’. It could be any group; it need not be race.

Yes, I do think that persons who are underrepresented are more entitled (to a limited degree) to defend their already ‘historically diminished’ representation, than those that are not underrepresented. That also goes both, and indeed, all ways.

My logic is wholly blind to race and the identity of the underrepresented in the specific context in which it may apply (black, white, whatever) is entirely incidental.

If white people were historically underrepresented in leading roles in Western cinema, then I would likewise say that white people were more entitled (to a limited degree) to be more entitled to object to white historical figures being ‘race swapped’.



This is another wild(er) ‘straw man’ statement that does not address my position on under-representation in the entertainment industry. See my comments above, which hopefully clarifies this for you.

I don’t think I can revisit this in a more readily comprehensible way than how I have presented it in this post, so if you still don’t understand my position then I’m afraid I’ll have to leave it there.

I think the mental gymnastics you have gone through to try and justify one-way race swapping only goes to show how untenable your position is.

 

[VincentHanna]

My god… this is like pulling teeth

They don't argue in good faith, I wouldn't bother.

 

[GlitterBalls]

Wait until the mods see this piece of art

But race swapping from white to black is allowed isn't it?

 

[Darujhistan]

maybe Cleopatra was acutally a man and gay! We knew romans practiced male relationships quite fondly - maybe her children were all adopted.

why not make a documentary about that!

Black gay couples Leo and Ceasar and then Leo and Mark....and then an all out gay spat with Octavian/Emperor Augustus

Why not? it's only white people being race swapped, which according to some is fine...

 

[Junglist]

I think the real crime is how can you take a subject as interesting as ancient Egypt and make it horrendous viewing.

 

[Darujhistan]

I think the real crime is how can you take a subject as interesting as ancient Egypt and make it horrendous viewing.

That's because they're not interested in Cleopatra or Ancient Egypt, their only interest was making her black. Which, industry wide, is the main reason behind a lot terrible TV and film, because the woke politics is the starting point and end point of what they're making, everything else is secondary, we got our politics in, we race/gender swapped the charachters etc, we signalled our virtues...job done.

 

[Scam]

But hey you've learnt something new with this thread, Cleopatra was white. Who said these threads aren't educational.

It doesn't seem to be the case though does it. A quick look shows she might have had Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage. Ironically (or not, probably) the director was born in Iran and describes herself as Persian. Look at the colour of her skin compared to Adele James' and honestly they're pretty similar. So again, what's the big deal? It's an actress playing a role.

 

[Junglist]

I'm not going down the woke rabbit hole. Not my hill of choice to die on

I just like watching documentaries on Egypt. It seems Netflix is now 1-1 because as as terrible as Cleopatra is they also made Secrets of the Saqqara Tomb which was fascinating.

 

[pc-guy]

It doesn't seem to be the case though does it. A quick look shows she might have had Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage. Ironically (or not, probably) the director was born in Iran and describes herself as Persian. Look at the colour of her skin compared to Adele James' and honestly they're pretty similar. So again, what's the big deal? It's an actress playing a role.

the point is, she was not BLACK. she could be all other races but she definitely wasnt black.

it makes no sense in portraying her as black and to consistently drive home a political point of "African Queen". Africa isnt all black.

tryign to make Africa synnomous with Black people is just another way of reinforcing stereotype and racism imo. making things binary and not recognising ethinicities is just as bad...

 

[B&W]

It doesn't seem to be the case though does it. A quick look shows she might have had Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage. Ironically (or not, probably) the director was born in Iran and describes herself as Persian. Look at the colour of her skin compared to Adele James' and honestly they're pretty similar. So again, what's the big deal? It's an actress playing a role.

Cleopatra was not black and the actress who played her is pretty dark and looks African.

There are historical images of her where she is light skinned.

The darkest Persian would not have such a skin colour and even if they were quite tanned there features would be completely different.

We have dark coloured people in my family (Pakistani background) but no one looks African, the whole facial structure is different.

This whole Hollywood woke agenda of putting in black African actors to portray people of colour is sickening.

I can understand it in works of fiction such as Bridgerton which is just a fantasy but in a historical documentary no it's ridiculous.

 

[C Kent]

It doesn't seem to be the case though does it. A quick look shows she might have had Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage. Ironically (or not, probably) the director was born in Iran and describes herself as Persian. Look at the colour of her skin compared to Adele James' and honestly they're pretty similar. So again, what's the big deal? It's an actress playing a role.

Ah, and yet interestingly the wiki you snagged that titbit of info from claims the "Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage" would be due to intermarriage with the Seleucid dynasty - which in itself conveniently ignores that the Seleucid were the same as the Ptolemaic i.e. Macedonian Greek (white skinned). Royal families of the time kept their lineage pure so to speak, which is why they often married 'inhouse'.

And of course there are the numerous busts, statues, coins and paintings that show her as white.

So again, what's the big deal? It's an actress playing a role.

So again, it's a documentary, documentaries are supposed to be factual. As to why it matters, well it matters a hell of a lot to Egyptians seeing as they are the ones suing Netflix for 'blackwashing' their history.

 

[pc-guy]

strangely when people say Africa and African, the first thing pop into my head are Lions, Cheetahs and Wildebeests.

if you ask me what Afircan people should be like, i would think Egyptians and North Africans (the Arabic/Persian mix) rather than Black Africans - probably more because I have been to those north african places and not the sub-saharan countries.

African diaspora is such a wide ranging race and skin colours - it is almost criminal to Black out all the other races/colours...

i think the concluding episode of the series had this historian claiming she was deperate to tell the story of this African Queen and sick of white washing of her history...i mean that is wrong on so many fundamental levels.

put it this way, you wouldnt teach kids like that in the schools cos it is on par with what Hitler's doctrine would have been.

 

[Junglist]

We have a Jamaican saying that is probably better reserved for the African continent. "Out of many, one people". Many different flavours may make up the entire continent but they're all one people. (OK I suppose that works better for a country vs a continent but the sentiment is the same)

 

[Scam]

Cleopatra was not black and the actress who played her is pretty dark and looks African.

This whole Hollywood woke agenda of putting in black African actors to portray people of colour is sickening.

It's funny, because Adele James is actually mixed-race herself. Looks like she has a white mother who is Welsh of all things. So not all that different from a mixed-race Cleopatra really, is it? People talking about Adele James like she grew up in darkest Africa in a mud hut, lol try South West London Like I said, her skin tone is pretty similar to some Persians.

Ah, and yet interestingly the wiki you snagged that titbit of info from claims the "Iranian, Syrian, Persian heritage" would be due to intermarriage with the Seleucid dynasty - which in itself conveniently ignores that the Seleucid were the same as the Ptolemaic i.e. Macedonian Greek (white skinned). Royal families of the time kept their lineage pure so to speak, which is why they often married 'inhouse'.

I wonder, were you an expert in the Seleucid's and Ptolemaic's before that Scottish Youtuber posted his video 'review'? Funny how there's lots of experts now that this 'controversy' has cropped up.

i think the concluding episode of the series had this historian claiming she was deperate to tell the story of this African Queen and sick of white washing of her history...i mean that is wrong on so many fundamental levels.

Seen as the jury will forever be out about Cleopatra's "colour" then it seems a bit of a stretch to be saying anything with the utmost certainty, so yes I agree. Although isn't Egypt technically part of the African continent so colour aside, you're not wrong to call her an African Queen...

 

[VincentHanna]

I wonder, were you an expert in the Seleucid's and Ptolemaic's before that Scottish Youtuber posted his video 'review'? Funny how there's lots of experts now that this 'controversy' has cropped up.

They learnt it when they were all 5 years old, read a book mate!

/s

 

[C Kent]

I wonder, were you an expert in the Seleucid's and Ptolemaic's before that Scottish Youtuber posted his video 'review'? Funny how there's lots of experts now that this 'controversy' has cropped up.

Expert? No I just read, you should try it occasionally. All you have to do is click the odd link on your font of all knowledge, Wikipedia.

Seen as the jury will forever be out about Cleopatra's "colour" then it seems a bit of a stretch to be saying anything with the utmost certainty, so yes I agree. Although isn't Egypt technically part of the African continent so colour aside, you're not wrong to call her an African Queen...

The jury isnt out at all, the 'conversation' is just being poisoned by folks with an agenda.