Cleopatra

I wondered why there was little outcry about Anne Boleyn at the time (June '21) but then I noticed when C Kent joined :o
It's not my fault I'm surrounded by uneducated fools that automatically associate 'black' with the African continent :p
Only because Eddie Murphy is a **** actor.
Hes not that bad, he was really good in Dreamgirls/Dolomite and some of his 80's stuff. I just think he's more than happy to take the paycheck and phone it in as it were.
 
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I know of his heritage, I meant more the point that he is a clearly white actor playing a historical role that was definitely originally meant for someone a few shades darker than him! I was quite young but I don't remember a big song and dance about it at the time.


rp2000

Lack of internet in 1982 probably helped.
 
On the contrary, as far as skin tone goes - her mixed heritage gives her a lighter "brown" tone which can look very similar to someone from the middle east :confused:

Have you asked her? Where is her father from?

Are they actually saying Cleopatra was black? Because the way I read it; a Persian director has cast a British mixed race, light-brown-skinned actress with a Welsh mother... ?


I wondered why there was little outcry about Anne Boleyn at the time (June '21) but then I noticed when C Kent joined :o

She does not look middle eastern in the show, she may be a shade lighter in real life.

But in that show her make up is done to portray her as sub saharan black.

Plus the opening quote from that old lady about her grandmother saying cleopatra was black just shows its all about identity politics not an accurate historical drama.
 
Lack of internet in 1982 probably helped.
Yep, pretty much. I mentioned this before in other threads, probably just as much wokery in the 80s and early 90s. But there was no internet echo chamber for like minded people to gather and organise a movement.

Plus the Scottish guy who helps some of these people think wasn't even born!


rp2000
 
Yep, pretty much. I mentioned this before in other threads, probably just as much wokery in the 80s and early 90s. But there was no internet echo chamber for like minded people to gather and organise a movement.

Plus the Scottish guy who helps some of these people think wasn't even born!


rp2000

No there wasn't just as much wokery in the 1990s, and definitely not the 80s. Wokery is very recent. If you take a look at the alt comedy scene of the late 80s then you'll see effective way of dealing with racism in one art form, over time they pretty much took the likes of Bernard Manning off TV, and rightly so, what they didn't do though is take it too ridiculous extremes and weaponise race the way we see now. You don't honestly try and deal with racism by just turning things on its head and going mental, but the trouble is of course the woke entertainment world hasn't got a 1 millionth of the talent that the alt comedy scene had back then, and continuing on through 90s and beyond.

So I don't think your categorisation of wokery is in any way correct. What you are correct about is the internet and social media maginfying everything to ridiculous extremes and that's why we have the ludicrous activism driven by the screaming hordes of utter morons on Twitter and elsewhere.

So, on the other side there's plenty of wokers helping some other people think too then...and also there was no internet for like minded woke lunatics to coalesce...Oh and by the way I seriously doubt mine and CD's politics align very closely at all, they certainly don't align with Nerdrotic et al, but I happen to think their take of modern entertainment aligns with mine, but that's because I have my own opinions, which are nuanced and happen to come from both sides of the political spectrum.

An example the tory party are trying to use the culture wars to stay in office, but their right-wing rhetotic and clear disregard for demonsrartion and free speech are utterly terrifying.

I don't like extremism in any form, and I think I can see both in one side of the culture wars and extreme right wing politics and extreme capitalism.
 
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No there wasn't just as much wokery in the 1990s, and definitely not the 80s. Wokery is very recent. If you take a look at the alt comedy scene of the late 80s then you'll see effective way of dealing with racism in one art form, over time they pretty much took the likes of Bernard Manning off TV, and rightly so, what they didn't do though is take it too ridiculous extremes and weaponise race the way we see now. You don't honestly try and deal with racism by just turning things on its head and going mental, but the trouble is of course the woke entertainment world hasn't got a 1 millionth of the talent that the alt comedy scene had back then, and continuing on through 90s and beyond.

So I don't think your categorisation of wokery is in any way correct. What you are correct about is the internet and social media maginfying everything to ridiculous extremes and that's why we have the ludicrous activism driven by the screaming hordes of utter morons on Twitter and elsewhere.

So, on the other side there's plenty of wokers helping some other people think too then...and also there was no internet for like minded woke lunatics to coalesce...Oh and by the way I seriously doubt mine and CD's politics align very closely at all, they certainly don't align with Nerdrotic et al, but I happen to think their take of modern entertainment aligns with mine, but that's because I have my own opinions, which are nuanced and happen to come from both sides of the political spectrum.

An example the tory party are trying to use the culture wars to stay in office, but their right-wing rhetotic and clear disregard for demonsrartion and free speech are utterly terrifying.

I don't like extremism in any form, and I think I can see both in one side of the culture wars and extreme right wing politics and extreme capitalism.

I should really have put wokery in speech marks, considering the thread we are in, to be fair.

Anyway, good post, would read again, don't agree with all of it, but then we never will! Its a shame good thought out posts like this gets lost in shorter hit and run posts, or the name calling or the YT videos :D


rp2000
 
I should really have put wokery in speech marks, considering the thread we are in, to be fair.

Anyway, good post, would read again, don't agree with all of it, but then we never will! Its a shame good thought out posts like this gets lost in shorter hit and run posts, or the name calling or the YT videos :D


rp2000

Thanks.

It's a lot easier to assess current events when you have a solid grounding of what came before it, and how things became twisted over time. My favourite stand-up has always been, and remains so, Stewart Lee, and you couldn't find a more left leaning, PC, Guardian reading, liberal, socialist, middle class "W****r" than him, the right absolutely LOATHE HIM.

So I think it's very important not to just assume someone is an 'ist or 'phobe, just because they think woke entertainment has got it wrong, I and many others just think its wrong to race swap Historical figures (I'm a History graduate by the way), and that by weaponising entertainment in a very blunt and stupid way to address wrongs of the past, both real and in fiction, is the right way to move forward. You do not affect real change by alienating lots of poeple who might see things slightly differently and making enemies of them, you just create more division and chaos, and I think this is what extreme wokism is doing.

I do not agree with rewriting History as abhorent as some of it is, because what's next burning books? we've already started altering texts, does anyone think that's really a good idea? Because I don't, History and literature and art should be left stand as it was, because otherwise we're never going to learn anything, we're just going to to swap one dogma, one politics, one form of empire and exploitation for another, and one form of authoritarism for another. How did that work out in the past?

Anyway, just thought I would try and set a few things straight.
 
There is nothing woke about cleopatra the series.

It was just falsehood. That was all it ever was from the start. The premise of the documentary was to spread lies and bend truth. Other crap on TV at least don’t pretend to be presenting facts when they dramatise historically events.

If there is anything woke about it - then it may be worth a dime. Unfortunately there is just nothing there!

Anyone who pss around and accuse people of being racist or what else for calling out this kind of crap needs to get a grip tbh.
 
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What I have said is that under represented persons in leading roles are (to a degree) more entitled to be protective of their existing representation. This applies equally and to all groups (not just races).
Why? Do you not think that both characters can stand side by side?
Because it sounds like you are saying when a race swap happens, one representation overshadows another representation.
 
Do you think the same should be true in say Bollywood or Asian cinema for example?

Yep and that's another door that only swings one way, where's all the activism to get more representation in these regions?

There isn't any and why is that?

1. Because there's no white people to replace.

2. Bollywood and Asian Cinema would tell the wokers, quite rightly, to get ******

Always the same story...
 
Wouldn't that be because the make up of those regions are significantly different to the make up of the US? The US/West is much more diverse than the Bollywood, Nollywood and Asian markets so one would assume the drive to get the US/West cinema to be a reflection of those who make up their society is probably more pressing to those in that market.

I don't think it has anything to do about replacing the whites. Though if you feel that way, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise.
 
Why? Do you not think that both characters can stand side by side?
Because it sounds like you are saying when a race swap happens, one representation overshadows another representation.

Can you please rephrase? I’m not following what you are saying here. Specifically:

‘Both characters’ - which two characters?

‘One representation overshadows another’ - sorry, I simply don’t follow.

Happy to address this but I don’t quite get what you are asking. Thanks.
 
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Do you think the same should be true in say Bollywood or Asian cinema for example?

If you are asking “Do I think that under-represented people in Bollywood or Asian cinema are (to a limited degree) more entitled to be protective of their existing representation?” - then yes.

For the sake of illustrating this, a hypothetical:

- Assume Bollywood makes movies just for India.
- Assume that India has a 5% white population.
- Assume that there is a very small (less than 5%) number of white people in leading Bollywood roles, across that catalogue of film.
- Assume that there is a white character in a popular long-standing defunct tv series.
- That TV show is being remade, and the casting of that character is being reconsidered.

That being the case, I think it would be logical and reasonable for a white Indian person to say:

“Hey - we are currently underrepresented in this catalogue of film, so for now I’d really rather you didn’t race swap this role as it may erode our representation even further.”

^
that does not mean that the role must be given to a white person. Instead, it’s simply reasonable for a person to be more sensitive to his own lack of representation in the media.

I made this point because there was a sentiment along the lines of: “other races always moan about race swaps” in the thread and I’m suggesting that this is a reason why: they have been underrepresented, so they are more sensitive to the issue. Their actual race (white / black etc) is entirely incident. It’s the under representation that matters.

Does that now make more sense?

In addition, @Junglist makes a good point above, in that Western demographics tend to be more diverse than others. I would expect the lack of diversity in Bollywood to broadly reflect that audience.
 
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