Computers for under £25 will help 11 million disadvantaged Brits on benefits get online

elmarko said:
If only the concept of a self made man wasn't complete fiction.

I guess I'm expected too much for people to actually think deeper than media-sound-bites or platitudes.
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Vincent is an example of it. He worked hard and got his **** together and you are belittling him? Or are people who improve themselves that suckle on the state's teat only worthy of praise?
 
UncleRuckus said:
Vincent is an example of it. He worked hard and got his **** together and you are belittling him? Or are people who improve themselves that suckle on the state's teat only worthy of praise?
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Define self made man.

Are you suggesting that the factors which make up an individual - such as natural intelligence, parental upbringing, environmental influences, genetics/gene expression, absence of negative aspects which could prevent success is something a person should be proud of?.

I grew up in a working class household & doing very well for myself - why?, because of a number of factors which were all objectively out of my control.

I'm happy I did well & I'm fortunate to have been given the traits required to get a good job & do well in life - but proud?, no - that's just egotistical rubbish.

I didn't choose to have no disabilities, neither did I choose to have good parents who aided me develop intellectually - I also has no say in the fact I wasn't beaten/abused or demotivated by a negative environment.

If you think recognising reality is the same as berating somebody for success then you really need to think a little harder.

I also don't recall mentioned anybody being "worthy of praise".
 
elmarko said:
Define self made man.

Are you suggesting that the factors which make up an individual - such as natural intelligence, parental upbringing, environmental influences, genetics/gene expression, absence of negative aspects which could prevent success is something a person should be proud of?.

I grew up in a working class household & doing very well for myself - why?, because of a number of factors which were all objectively out of my control.

I'm happy I did well & I'm fortunate to have been given the traits required to get a good job & do well in life - but proud?, no - that's just egotistical rubbish.

I didn't choose to have no disabilities, neither did I choose to have good parents who aided me develop intellectually - I also has no say in the fact I wasn't beaten/abused or demotivated by a negative environment.

If you think recognising reality is the same as berating somebody for success then you really need to think a little harder.

I also don't recall mentioned anybody being "worthy of praise".
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A self made man is an individual who wants to improve themselves and against the factors which life throws at them, grabs life by the balls and succeeds or fails and brushes themselve off and marches on.

I'm sorry you have no pride that you have done well for yourself, you should be proud, Elmarko. :)

Just out of curiosity, do you subscribe to the idea of philosophical determinism?
 
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UncleRuckus said:
A self made man is an individual who wants to improve themselves and against the factors which life throws at them, grabs life by the balls and succeeds or fails and brushes themselve off and marches on.

I'm sorry you have no pride that you have done well for yourself, you should be proud, Elmarko. :)

Just out of curiosity, do you subscribe to the idea of philosophical determinism?
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Roughly, in the sense that our behaviour is a result of cause & effect - that our mind is just another organ & our mental faculties thoughts & person is the result of the physical state changes within our brain - I would say a proponent of physicalism/materialism would be more accurate.

The wikipedia article puts it well.

Determinism often is taken to mean simply causal determinism, which in physics is the idea known as cause-and-effect. It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states. This meaning can be distinguished from other varieties of determinism mentioned below.

I don't believe in any unscientific concepts, I don't believe a belief in the kind of free will you are suggesting really fits with our modern understanding of both human behaviour or with the idea that only the material world exists - as it requires something additional outside of simple matter interaction in cause & effect.

I'm not berating hard work, it's great & people should be happy they were fortunate enough to make it out of a bad spot - I don't mean to diminish the significance of the event - just that pride in my opinion is a bit of a silly concept.

On a side note, are you a substance duellist?.

I can totally understand why religious people are, as they do strongly believe in the existence of something outside of our physical word - they often have already accepted the concept of "spirit" or a "none-physical mind" - not to mention free will is critical to most religious concepts (as they have heaven/hell/sinning etc).

It just seems most of these concepts arise from human ego, anything to deny our true existence as animals - which are carbon based biological machines - nothing special, just have developed technology & language (which animals have in less forms, via the use of tools or communication).

I mean, do you believe that animals (excluding humans) have free-will?.
 
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This is the end of libraries then...

They've been trying to gain headway in this area, but this would pretty much blow them out of the water. Only way forward would be to incorporate libraries into other settings such as health clinics or shops in my opinion.
 
elmarko said:
Define self made man.

Are you suggesting that the factors which make up an individual - such as natural intelligence, parental upbringing, environmental influences, genetics/gene expression, absence of negative aspects which could prevent success is something a person should be proud of?.

I grew up in a working class household & doing very well for myself - why?, because of a number of factors which were all objectively out of my control.

I'm happy I did well & I'm fortunate to have been given the traits required to get a good job & do well in life - but proud?, no - that's just egotistical rubbish.

I didn't choose to have no disabilities, neither did I choose to have good parents who aided me develop intellectually - I also has no say in the fact I wasn't beaten/abused or demotivated by a negative environment.

If you think recognising reality is the same as berating somebody for success then you really need to think a little harder.

I also don't recall mentioned anybody being "worthy of praise".
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That's one of the Best posts I've ever read on here, Kudos to you Sir. :cool:
 
elmarko said:
Roughly, in the sense that our behaviour is a result of cause & effect - that our mind is just another organ & our mental faculties thoughts & person is the result of the physical state changes within our brain - I would say a proponent of physicalism/materialism would be more accurate.

The wikipedia article puts it well.

Determinism often is taken to mean simply causal determinism, which in physics is the idea known as cause-and-effect. It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states. This meaning can be distinguished from other varieties of determinism mentioned below.

I don't believe in any unscientific concepts, I don't believe a belief in the kind of free will you are suggesting really fits with our modern understanding of both human behaviour or with the idea that only the material world exists - as it requires something additional outside of simple matter interaction in cause & effect.

I'm not berating hard work, it's great & people should be happy they were fortunate enough to make it out of a bad spot - I don't mean to diminish the significance of the event - just that pride in my opinion is a bit of a silly concept.

On a side note, are you a substance duellist?.

I can totally understand why religious people are, as they do strongly believe in the existence of something outside of our physical word - they often have already accepted the concept of "spirit" or a "none-physical mind" - not to mention free will is critical to most religious concepts (as they have heaven/hell/sinning etc).
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I see, I think this is why our ideological horns clash so much. :D

As for the substance dualist, nah I don't think so. Science shows us what happens to brain impulses when we contemplate things, so I find the idea a little hard to swallow. Though it is a comforting thought to have if you are thinking about what happens after we die. :)
 
Efour said:
I think its actually part or a bigger plan to cut costs and stop the excuses of people that they don't have net access that they cant find work.

QUOTE]

That's about it. I work in social care and many of the people I support are on benefits, I work with people with severe and enduring mental health problems and some have learning difficulties too (mild, but enough to make things difficult for them).

I've noticed more and more services are moving on-line, to cut costs. This includes applications for benefits, further learning, the housing register, job sites. At the moment there are alternatives but at some point many will move to on-line only. Already if I wanted to find a job, I'd be looking on-line. A possibility would be to put more computers in libraries but there is probably a capacity issue.
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It's good news for Wonga.com

Nocky24 said:
This is the end of libraries then...

They've been trying to gain headway in this area, but this would pretty much blow them out of the water. Only way forward would be to incorporate libraries into other settings such as health clinics or shops in my opinion.
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Or pubs and bookies.
 
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Efour said:
Are we still arguing that having internet access is a luxury ? I don't think so anymore. I think its a pretty basic right in a western country.
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thats idealist crap right there. I live in a western country i am entitled to the internet! :confused: why and more to the point where do you draw the line on what you are and aren't 'entitled to'?

I work, i bought myself a house, i would like to have 'nice things' but does that mean that I'm entitled to everything i would like? No, I have to save up and buy things through 'earning' a living so why should it be different for others?
 
I would really like to say what my thoughts are on "peoples rights" but I suspect I would get badly flamed for it.

What I would like to say is that having the right to have something means no-one can prevent you from having it not that you are entitled to it.

The right to free speech for example mean no one can take it away from you when you wish to talk

The right to reproduce and have children again no-one can take that away from you, but it should be up to the parents / family to support those spawn not the governments, and this is where the problems start people (although not all) believe that if it is their right to have something that means they are entitled to financial aid to achieve that right if they cannot do it themselves, basic human rights where to prevent mis-treating behavior upon a person or group has nothing to do with having sky sports, broadband the latest handset or a 5 a-side football team to call your own, if the government where to stop all financial aid for "luxury items" like families big houses cars and other items then it would go a long way to stopping the single teen mum with a new house the latest nikes and iphone society we have today, might also go a long way towards making the hard working white male/female feel a little respected by their own government in their own country
 
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MooMoo444 said:
Yeah, I can see having a computer worth $25 being a life of luxury. I may consider quitting my job.
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I'm giving up my Retina MacBook Pro back and quitting work so I can get one of these amazing computers. It seems people on benefits get more than I do by working... :D

Derek W said:
thats idealist crap right there. I live in a western country i am entitled to the internet! :confused: why and more to the point where do you draw the line on what you are and aren't 'entitled to'?
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I bet there was people saying the same thing when utilities such as water, power and gas was piped to everybody. Damn those poor people getting access to utilities that only the rich had access to before.

I've earned my running water. Why should the plebs have internal plumbing and running water. They should be still washing in the river and cooking over a coal stove.
 
LordSplodge said:
Damn those poor people getting access to utilities that only the rich had access to before.

I've earned my running water. Why should the plebs have internal plumbing and running water. They should be still washing in the river and cooking over a coal stove.
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The funny thing is, if you posted just the above - half this forum would agree with you. :D
 
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