Computers for under £25 will help 11 million disadvantaged Brits on benefits get online

LordSplodge said:
I bet there was people saying the same thing when utilities such as water, power and gas was piped to everybody. Damn those poor people getting access to utilities that only the rich had access to before.

I've earned my running water. Why should the plebs have internal plumbing and running water. They should be still washing in the river and cooking over a coal stove.
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Most deprived area didn't get utilities until long after the war, and many still don't have e.g. in rural areas. People aren't entailed to gas or electricity. If you don't pay your bill for long enough it gets cut off, that's if you're not using a card meter. There's little in the way of subsidy either unless you're a pensioner.

Why is the internet any different.
 
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elmarko said:
Define self made man.

Are you suggesting that the factors which make up an individual - such as natural intelligence, parental upbringing, environmental influences, genetics/gene expression, absence of negative aspects which could prevent success is something a person should be proud of?.

I grew up in a working class household & doing very well for myself - why?, because of a number of factors which were all objectively out of my control.

I'm happy I did well & I'm fortunate to have been given the traits required to get a good job & do well in life - but proud?, no - that's just egotistical rubbish.

I didn't choose to have no disabilities, neither did I choose to have good parents who aided me develop intellectually - I also has no say in the fact I wasn't beaten/abused or demotivated by a negative environment.
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To be fair I think you are talking the whole self made man a bit too far making the argument absurd. No person can succeed in isolation that much can be agreed, but people can succeed in serious adversity and against all the odds at which many would have given up or not have bothered at all.

To champion the poor like you do as they are the product of their environment (which is an admirable thing) but to not recognise that some people succeed despite being in the same situation as the poor you have compassion for is as bad as the idiots that berate the poor for being poor.

Not all who have succeeded in life have had a stable loving home life with parents that emotionally and financially support them, nor did they have parents that are intelligent and successful themselves. Some even succeed despite being physically and mentally abused.
 
Bear said:
To be fair I think you are talking the whole self made man a bit too far making the argument absurd. No person can succeed in isolation that much can be agreed, but people can succeed in serious adversity and against all the odds at which many would have given up or not have bothered at all.
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I don't recall saying that some people can't succeed despite adversity.

I'm saying many people fail due to adversity.

Bear said:
To champion the poor like you do as they are the product of their environment (which is an admirable thing) but to not recognise that some people succeed despite being in the same situation as the poor you have compassion for is as bad as the idiots that berate the poor for being poor.
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As above, if you re-read what I said you will see I never specifically stated that was the case (As I agree, that would be absurd).

We all have different tolerances & have different abilities to overcome disadvantage, let's just take one example - some people are very resilient to emotional distress, others fall apart under pressure & have a breakdown.

I'd also argue that everybody has different requirements, some need harsh parenting, some need soft - some mid-way, some people do better born with advantage, some may strive from adversity.

My point was more that many people end up in the wrong situation for them to succeed in life (due to genetics, environment, early development).

Bear said:
Not all who have succeeded in life have had a stable loving home life with parents that emotionally and financially support them, nor did they have parents that are intelligent and successful themselves. Some even succeed despite being physically and mentally abused.
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I agree completely (as above, I never stated otherwise).

But we have to recognise that many don't have the level of resilience to overcome adversity in the same way (as we all have different coping mechanisms).

This is clear when you look at how well people perform in life who have been abused (higher chance of addiction, suicide, depression, criminality etc) - the data seems to suggest that while some are fortunate enough to overcome it - many are not.

Taking the above into account, if you could state specifically which parts are absurd I'd be happy to clarify further or revise my statement if it has errors in it.

Edit - to clarify, the same applies to not just the poor - I don't blame the richest in society for doing that they do (as they are bound by the same laws of causality) - I don't really think I'm championing anybody, just attempting to put forward views & ideas which could result in a more cohesive society for all.
 
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elmarko said:
I don't recall saying that some people can't succeed despite adversity.

I'm saying many people fail due to adversity.
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I may be mistaken (probably am :) )but I was taking that to be the meaning of the self made man. Succeeding despite adversity, not that someone can succeed in isolation of others. Even Tarzan had the monkeys :D
 
I don't see what the term 'self made man' has anything to do with overcoming adversity.

It just means succeeding [in life/business] unaided..ie: with no silver spoon or generous benefactor supporting you along the way.
 
LordSplodge said:
I bet there was people saying the same thing when utilities such as water, power and gas was piped to everybody. Damn those poor people getting access to utilities that only the rich had access to before.

I've earned my running water. Why should the plebs have internal plumbing and running water. They should be still washing in the river and cooking over a coal stove.
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Nice flippant remark to my comment on the 'entitlement' that efour seemed to think that people in a western country have to the internet......

Because we're in a western country does that also mean that everyone should have sky tv as standard? or perhaps a car since it is commonplace?

I'm neither rich nor poor. I earn enough to pay a mortgage but cant afford sky tv (sports package is the only one that I'd be interested in) or a car although i do have a tv licence and drivers licence. Should i phone up Sky or pop down to the local car dealership and demand a subscription or car for a vastly reduced rate or do you think they'd maybe tell me where to go?

As stated previously there are places which are publicly available which have the facilities to get people online, libraries, but i guess disadvantaged brits cant get to them since they dont have cars........if only there was some magical transportation system in which people could travel to different areas of their towns or cities at little cost......:rolleyes:
 
Freakbro said:
I don't see what the term 'self made man' has anything to do with overcoming adversity.

It just means succeeding [in life/business] unaided..ie: with no silver spoon or generous benefactor supporting you along the way.
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Because succeeding in life despite coming from a broken home, having no emotional or financial support from your family etc. exactly meets your definition. Obviously some overcome this adversity but many don't.

You could argue that the state could be the generous benefactor but as that help is available to everyone equally in the same position it really isn't relevant.

I was just disagreeing with Elmarko that the self made man was fiction, although I admit that my definition of self made man could be incorrect.
 
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Bear said:
Because succeeding in life despite coming from a broken home, having no emotional or financial support from your family etc. exactly meets your definition. Obviously some overcome this adversity but many don't.

You could argue that the state could be the generous benefactor but as that help is available to everyone equally in the same position it really isn't relevant.

I was just disagreeing with Elmarko that the self made man was fiction, although I admit that my definition of self made man could be incorrect.
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I think it may be a semantics issue, I agree with your content but not really on the term self made,

As overcoming adversity is just that - self made has an implications it's a choice that some make that others just don't (when in reality reasons exist as to why people are capable of making that choice) - some have great natural resilience to adversity/great ability to adapt to a bad situation.

For me, self made man is just too basic to have any meaning in any depth.

My main reason for support a generous state is to attempt to compensate for the advantage one group has over another, I would expect proponents of a meritocracy to also (as for a true meritocracy, you require true equality of opportunity).

I just dislike the idea of us as a society wasting some of the greatest minds due to a lack of stimulus/support for many of our young people, I mean just consider how many potential Einstein's have died starving to death in Africa & never had the change to develop an incredible natural intellect (which could benefit the entire of mankind).
 
Derek W said:
thats idealist crap right there. I live in a western country i am entitled to the internet! :confused: why and more to the point where do you draw the line on what you are and aren't 'entitled to'?

I work, i bought myself a house, i would like to have 'nice things' but does that mean that I'm entitled to everything i would like? No, I have to save up and buy things through 'earning' a living so why should it be different for others?
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you draw the line at a crap £25 PC. Come on man get with the times.

its no more luxury than a crap mobile phone or a land line...

someone else said it... times change.

Do you still consider telephones luxury. I didn't say entitlement i said basic right to access. The library obviously isn't meeting the criteria as its not just finding a job i think they will move the majority of the systems online to weed out scroungers. This is obviously the solution their best think tanks have chosen.

btw i dont own a decent mobile. i have a total budget smartphone cos i cant afford it.
I dont drive - i wish they taught driving in schools as a basic skill. everyone should be able to drive, not own a car.
i have a medium tv package cos it came "free" with my cable package.
A modern workforce and economy needs the internet, i thought most homes had internet access anyway so im puzzled who these 11M people are tbh.

Its cost cutting, straight and simple, if you spend a little to get people back to work you save a fortune in the long run... no one can use the excuses they dont have internet access
 
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storm in tea cup look at the pc specs they are dreadful :p

thing is you could go on ebay and get a better spec pc for same price as the desktop and faster

your broadband youd just get as normal so its not really special at all.
 
My person stance is that Internet is a luxury however it is necessary for many many things these days and is a meanwhile investment, however I don't believe that it should be handed on a plate to people, people need to work for these things.
 
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